Visit our Popular Forums

planetoftheapes · 01-03-2007, 21:31

AW,

I believe your are being a bit hard on the L420. You are looking at things from the most negative perspective. After all, this is a sailboat not a trawler. If the goal is to motor with the greatest efficiency and run HVAC all the time, you can do better than the L420. If you want the ability to function without diesel and use sailing, the sun and wind to power your ship then the L420 is the only choice. These system are not even comparable. As I have written before, these are different solutions to different problems. I could just as easily argue the OSSA is an inferior system because there is no way to store and use “green” energy. You are totally reliant on diesel and the single generator for everything. There have been real reliability issue with DC generators.

Some small points:

1. In terms of diesel consumption, what is the efficiency of storing energy while sailing then using that energy to motor or live at anchor? Given that you consumed zero diesel the efficiency is likely quite high. You might be able to survive without a generator all together on the L420 sans AC.

2. Diesels have been known to fail for a variety of reasons especially clogged filters and impeller disintegration. Would it not be worth a great deal (maybe even 56% efficiency) to have electric power instantly available if the diesel fails or you want to slip away quietly from anchor.

3. Batteries are heavy and may require replacement in 5 years or so but having the ability not to run a generator at all, for days, is valuable. The L420 seems to sail fine, without sinking, with the batteries she has, so maybe she can tolerate their weight. An owner could setup any sort of electrical system he wished. You could install a HVAC system that ran from the batteries if you so desired. There are new batteries which will soon revolutionized this hybrid concept.

Now the L420 is not perfect, but to say the OSSA system is better requires you to define what you mean by better. I want the option to run green. I want to be able to motor on battery power alone. The OSSA system can’t do that so how could it possible be a better system for me? By my definition of good the OSSA system totally fails.

The Dean 441 looks great but diesels under the bunks…

**GordMay** · 02-03-2007, 00:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Absolute Wind

“... For example I am convinced I want 4 foot lighting grounding strips on both hulls for freshwater sailing ...”

Why not 10 Ft strip electrodes ?

ess105 · 02-03-2007, 04:20

AW - this is a nicely written article but I do suggest you take a little more time researching before you reach to your conclusions.

A few examples.

Quote:

Having batteries and equipment between the generator and the electric motors means for every HP output from the generator you only get 0.56 HP down at the electric motors.
Reference: Diesel-electric marine propulsion systems and accessories.

I took a quick look at this site. The section where the manufacture quotes the .56HP at the motors quotes specs (like 48v battery bank) which are NOT the specs of the Lagoon 420 system. They're either talking about another major manfacturer (who?) or it's bogus sales talk backed by very poor research. Either way, I fail to see how you used this as a factor to influence you between the eLeopard and the Lagoon 420.

Quote:

When the boat is running the AC for cooling or the reverse cycle for heating the generator must be running. I.E. You can’t power the HVAC off the batteries.

Isn't that true for the eLeopard too? Why is this relevant when comparing boat systems? Unless you subscribe to the next myth ....

Quote:

The constant speed generator consumes fuel at a constant speed

Well - you made the effort to go to the Ossa website. In the interest of a balanced comparisson, I assume you also went to the Onan website (http://www.onan.com/pdf/marine/a-1481.pdf)

What did you think of the fuel consumption table which shows the variable consumption based on variable load?

Ok - so the quote above is not a myth but the implication that fixed speed gensets have fixed consumption is very much a myth.

There seems to be a disinformation theme coming through from the Leopard guys which is full of holes. They are very easy to see through with a few mins extra effort. I am suprised Leopard / Onan are pushing the variable fuel use as setting them apart from the fixed speed genset. Customers doing a little research will discover this is simply not true. That makes all the other claims the Leopard sales people make suspect.

ess105 · 02-03-2007, 04:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by planetoftheapes

2. Diesels have been known to fail for a variety of reasons especially clogged filters and impeller disintegration. Would it not be worth a great deal (maybe even 56% efficiency) to have electric power instantly available if the diesel fails or you want to slip away quietly from anchor.

Good point PotE but don't forget - the 56% efficiency comes from a description of a system that is NOT the Lagoon 420. I wouldn't give any more air to this number.

Oma Dasala · 02-03-2007, 13:29

A single speed generator(genset) is single speed because the speed (rpm's)are a mutipul of the AC frequency. Diesel's have no restriction in there intake tract ie throttle or butterfly. The speed stays the same to give 60Hz (or 50Hz in europe) and only load increases the fuel consumption. Small load, small consumption. Heavy load, heavy consumption. Now a genset that varies speed is a DC generator. More load spin the diesel faster. If you have AC from this setup it is accomplished through an inverter.
This does not mean that one or the other is more or less efficient. Only that they are different ways to get to the same place. The ineffencies come from changing the current you have to what you do not have. As in I have 120AC but need 12DC. Or the reverse.

cat man do · 02-03-2007, 15:15

POA said,

2. Diesels have been known to fail for a variety of reasons especially clogged filters and impeller disintegration

This would be a lack of maintenance issue, not an engine reliability issue.

I could just as easily say, "sailboat's have been known to fail because the rig fell down"

I want the option to run green.

While the system may be green to run, it certainly was'nt green to build.

Let's not kid ourselves here, the effect on the environment to manufacture Solar panel's, and Batteries is fairly horrific.

I am not sure which style of system has worse effect's though.

you want to slip away quietly from anchor.

Mariner's have been doing this for century's, they use sail's.

Dave

ess105 · 02-03-2007, 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oma Dasala

A single speed generator(genset) is single speed because the speed (rpm's)are a mutipul of the AC frequency. Diesel's have no restriction in there intake tract ie throttle or butterfly. The speed stays the same to give 60Hz (or 50Hz in europe) and only load increases the fuel consumption. Small load, small consumption. Heavy load, heavy consumption. Now a genset that varies speed is a DC generator. More load spin the diesel faster. If you have AC from this setup it is accomplished through an inverter.
This does not mean that one or the other is more or less efficient. Only that they are different ways to get to the same place. The ineffencies come from changing the current you have to what you do not have. As in I have 120AC but need 12DC. Or the reverse.

Thanks for the 101. I really don't understand the Leopard tactic of saying that gensets which don't have variable speeds have fixed fuel consumption - it's sure to backfire on them.

Intentional Drifter · 02-03-2007, 17:36

I think the issue of genset fuel consumption is still up in the air. Personally, I think Oma is correct (at least his is consistent with my understanding), but the Lagoon rep said something different while we were on the sail. However, there may also have been a translation issue there, too. So, I sent an email to them with my concern and asking for clarification. I'll let you know after I hear back.

ID

pbmaise · 03-03-2007, 12:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by GordMay

Why not 10 Ft strip electrodes ?

You may find it interesting to read a technical paper based upon surveys of sail boats struck by lightning. Some with and some without protection. Some in fresh and some in salt water.

http://www.marinelightning.com/IEEE.pdf

This article found little difference between the damage suffered with and without "protection".

It is not square inches of the plate that is important..it is the amount of edge it has. The more edge the greater the number of jump off points.

You may have made the 10' comment tongue in cheek however, you were right on the money. The electrode I want to protect my sail boat with has 124.6" of total edge length.

One electrode on each hull will povide a total of 250" of edge protection. A standard 12"x12" plate only has 48" of edge.

I have been told the French do not take lightning protection that seriously. Lagoon's position of not permitting me to factory order better protection didn't sit well with me. True I can aftermarket something to suit my worries, however, I am a strong believer in using the factory for thru hull changes

That is why Dean impressed me when they said they would follow my directions to produce a boat with the protection level I want.

If you are using the standard 12"x12" plate on your boat now I recommend reading your insurance policy.

The electrode I want to protect my sailboat with is called the GSTRIP. See Ground strip for boat lightning protection by Marine Lightning Protection Inc.

Quiet Riot 420 · 03-03-2007, 12:17

Absolute Wind,

The info you received on the Onan generator in Miami was wrong. As per the Onan.com website you change your oil every 200 hours not 100 as you (they) stated. Also, that genset runs at a constant speed of 1800 RPM's, and the fuel consumption is totally dependant on the load. Again as per the Onan site, 100 % load 1.9 Gal/hr, at 75% load--1.3 Gal/hr., 50% load 1.1 Gal/hr., 25% load .7 Gal/hr., and at no load .5 Gal/hr.

I will also run my HVAC off of the motor batteries via a 4000 watt 72V DC to 120 V AC pure sine wave inverter, thus the genset will only run when the motor batteries are down 30 or 40% to bring them back up to charge and then automatically shut down. I should be able to run my 16000 BTU AC unit all night without the genset running at all.

Fair Sailing _(\_
Quiet Riot 420

pbmaise · 03-03-2007, 12:58

Thanks for setting record straight so quickly. I looked at Onan specs and now agree I came away from conversation with Leopard with false impression. Single speed Onan doesn't mean single rate of fuel consumption. That rep had me convinced the 420 on average would consume more fuel per day then the e-Leopard.

I can't doubt Onan's table...afterall....I supplied the equipment to Onan to make the measurements. Shame on me for speaking so quickly against my own former client without checking.

I tried to go back and edit prior post to correct bum information from Leopard but can't get back in.

One thing that still irks me is even if the oil change rate of Onan is 200 hours and not 100 hours like Leopard told me is that still is a lot of oil. The spec sheet says the Onan has 8 quarts of oil. Even if competing generator has same volume of oil you have to deal with a lot less oil waste changing it once every 500 hours.

Quiet Riot 420 · 03-03-2007, 14:03

AW,

Another fact from the Onan site. Dry weight 870 lbs without sound shield, and 930 lbs. with sound sheild. The 420 comes with the sound sheild.

Did your friends at OSSA tell you that they already replaced the "beta" generator on Tony's elec. 4300, to the new "permanent" one? What was that all about?

Fair Sailing _(\_
Quiet Riot 420

bulabro · 06-03-2007, 21:02

I’m new to this list and fairly new to cruising catamarans, but my wife and I are serious cat buyers looking to cruise the Pacific West Coast and perhaps beyond. There are very few cats available in California so recently I flew back for the Miami Boat Show. I loved the Lagoon 420 in terms of layout, livability and comfort and I came away from the show ready to place my order. However, after reading the posts on this thread, and giving the boat more thought, I have some serious concerns:

I’m used to a cat with two diesels, each with its own starter battery, and a separate genset. I like the redundancy of having three diesel engines capable of powering my house batteries and the nav systems, autopilot, watermaker, etc. On the Lagoon 420 it seems like I’m dependant on one genset.
I’m concerned with the start up problems Lagoon has experienced with the electric motors. If a manufacturer can’t get boats ready for a boat show, I just don’t know how reliable these engines can be. How will I get service in Costa Rica? At least with a diesel engine, I’m fairly confident of my own ability to do minor maintenance and I know diesel mechanics are available throughout the world.
I’ve heard that the Lagoon 420 will motor around 6 knots. I would prefer to have the ability to motor faster, however this issue is not as important as 1 and 2 above.

As a result of the these concerns, we have decided to order a Leopard 43. I know this is a Lagoon thread but I would appreciate any educated comparisons between the Lagoon 42 and the Leopard 43 that the readers of this thread might offer.
Thanks,
Bulabro

northerncat · 06-03-2007, 22:12

its all been said and done i think youll find ots horses for courses i personally woukd go the leopard but only cause i dont like the idea of lugging a heavy lot of expensive batteries around
sean