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Old 10-01-2007, 17:49   #271
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The L420 is the most beautiful cat ever built!

From the Lagoon weight memo:

“Of course, the Lagoon catamarans are not heavier than the one from our competitors."

I really believe the answer to the weight question is most other manufacturers are not being very honest about weight.

It is only logical, given Lagoon’s construction techniques, that the L420 is really no heavier than any cat sans a 2500lb battery bank.

I found the vertical windows strange at first as well. After I stepped into a L410 saloon and saw the space and the view, I was hooked.

The L420 has a very pleasant, functional look, and since people generally don't buy boats they find unattractive, many others must feel as I do-now something like 110 boats sold.

Actually, non-L420 catamarans are beginning to look out of date to me.

Still waiting to hear a real report on this board about the electric drive control system‘s functionality?
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Old 10-01-2007, 18:26   #272
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Hey ID I wasn't bagging the Lagoon's look's at all, in fact quite the opposite

I'd also say I find the look's of the lagoon quite attractive, where as this.............

Posted by me.


Bring on the sacred cow, although our Hindu friends may find this insulting, but they taste good.

Dave
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Old 10-01-2007, 18:34   #273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by planetoftheapes
From the Lagoon weight memo:

“Of course, the Lagoon catamarans are not heavier than the one from our competitors."

I really believe the answer to the weight question is most other manufacturers are not being very honest about weight.

It is only logical, given Lagoon’s construction techniques, that the L420 is really no heavier than any cat sans a 2500lb battery bank.



Still waiting to hear a real report on this board about the electric drive control system‘s functionality?

It's not logical at all, we see these lighter cat's in OZ all the time , they get weighed so that handicap's can be worked out for those inclined to race, and it's not just the light cats who race, even Prouts race in the Brisbane to Gladstone, and have won on handicap.


Still waiting to hear a real report on this board about the weight issue as well. Not one atemmpting justification by Lagoon's PR dept.

Dave
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Old 10-01-2007, 19:39   #274
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Hey, Dave, no problem. I was just falsely protesting and maybe it didn't come across. I also just detest those little emoticons.

RE: cows -- yup, my 20 year old son is giving me grief for enjoying my steaks and BarBQ, getting on my about how bad they are for me. But where I grew up, you could pick the really good BarBQ out real easy -- they are the ones across the street from the cardiologists!

Just now noticed your sig line. As a "real" Texan, I take exception. Bush is not a real Texan, real Texans definitely do not go to Yale. I'm so embarrassed for my country, and my state.

Sorry Everybody

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Old 10-01-2007, 19:58   #275
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No problem on my end ID,and I certainl would'nt want to offend the great state of Texas.

Although you say G Dubya isn't rightly one of your's, and believe me I know were your coming from with our own PM "John Howard" beeing GWB's puppet, there was another saying I liked.

" A Village in Texas is missing it's Idiot".

I do like the website, and do I feel sorry for you.

Dave.
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Old 10-01-2007, 20:23   #276
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Sorry about the serious thread hijack there guy's.

Just had a reply from a Lagoon reseller on the weight ?

quote"
Dave,
The Lagoon catamaran's are built to Bureau Veritas, which is the French equivalent to Lloyds worldwide shipping standards, enabling the Lagoons to be able to go straight into Commercial Survey. I will not comment on the other brands that you have mentioned, though I do know the Lagoon range is heavily constructed, meaning built thick & strong. In my opinion, the Lagoon boats are very hard to better in any conditions, sailing wise & the only down point may be there appearance to some"

Probably right if comparing it to other 42 footers weighing as much as the lagoon

If it was mentioned that they were done to survey earlier I would have understood earlier.

And on the strength issue , it has been shown many times that a properly designed lightweight composite structure can equal and better traditional heavy weight method's. They just dont alway's get accepted by the various survey orginizations as they are still working off of outdated rules and tables.


Some of the Australian Cats I mentioned are done to survey as well, though I believe we don't use the DNV or Lloyds classification as it is a bit outdated in relation to composite construction for multihulls, and was probably written when fiberglass was invented .


I believe there is a modified survey done over here that takes partially into account the strength of a lightweight composite structure, unlike the old one which did not, which i'd think is why the charter fleet's over here have had mostly imported multihulls until recently when a few OZ designer's have given the nod to a survey build.

For a long time some of the designers refused to allow a boat to be built to survey as it overly compramised the design and it's perfomance.


It would be interesting to see a Lagoon built to a non survey requirement, probably 10,000kg lighter, floating higher, wouldn't it fly.


Dave
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Old 11-01-2007, 23:57   #277
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I am certain the good engineers that designed the 420 thought of one particular problem that worries me. Protection of the electric motors while in use during a full lightning strike . I know someone had a good look in the electrical panel. Were there lightning arresters in that panel? I sure wouldn't like to have to replace motors after a lightning strike.

Regarding the recharge rate while under sail. One thing you got to keep in mind is that while under power that prop has to be spinning very fast and while under sail it just spins slowly.

I am sure it is only a matter of time before other manufacturers also come out with their hybrid models.

Hopefully, that will drive prices down a bit as i plan to purchase in 2008.

Phil
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Old 12-01-2007, 00:38   #278
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RE: Lightning protection, I'm not counting on the factory for this one. From what I've seen of the Euro boats, they rarely think much about the subject. I've already contacted Dr. Ewen Thomson regarding the installation of a system that will reflect the most current scientific thinking on the subject. You can look at his stuff at: Marine Lightning Protection Inc.

RE: prop rpm's, with the large props of the 420, they actually turn fewer rpm's than standard diesel powered boats

RE: Prices, I wouldn't count on it. The 420 has the most competitive pricing of the multihulls, and their price has gone up over $100K in less than a year.

ID
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Old 12-01-2007, 07:37   #279
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Lightning seems to be something that has no rules.

I doubt that anyone has come up with a system that protect's a boat from lightning yet.

Every one i've spoken to about it , and yes, i've had a strike while aboard, has one thing in common.

The smoke escapes from nearly every electrical device on board, and it cost's a fortune to get it put back in.

Plus wires melting, wires blowing out of conduit's, instruments blowing out of bulkhead's , rubber bushes melting in motor's etc etc.

Does it different every time.

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Old 12-01-2007, 08:03   #280
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Weight

Here is why I believe it is logical to conclude the L420 is not excessively heavy (given 2500 extra lbs for batteries) relative to other production cats:

Performance of a multi-hull lives and dies based on the sail area/displacement ratio. If the SA/D ration for the L420 were much lower than other manufacturers her performance would be lower.

The same would hold for the L440 and L500. In fact, these cats sails as well as any other cat.

The prelim report on the L420 is she sails well. So, either the SA/D ratio does not play a big factor in multi-hull performance or someone is not telling the truth about displacement.

Is the SA/D ratio not a big factor in performance or do other production cats simply have a higher than stated displacement?

I also know that ultra-light cats are built like the Farrier F41. I haven’t heard race wins by this boat so maybe SA/D is not such a big a factor.

Ultimately, put all the boats on a scale and let’s see.
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Old 12-01-2007, 09:26   #281
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Wetted Area

I know nothing about boat design, but isn't it actually the proportion of sail area to wetted area that is important? Isn't it drag that is of greatest significance, not weight, and so the greater the wetted area the greater the drag. Displacement gives an approximation of wetted area, but the shape under water can have a significant impact on the wetted area. Long and thin hulls increases the wetted area, short and stout reduces it for the same displacement. Are the wide hulls with barrel shaped bottoms the way the Lagoon 420 is able to preserve reasonable performance despite the large displacement - by minimising the wetted area?

Chris
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Old 12-01-2007, 09:40   #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 420Hull58
I know nothing about boat design, but isn't it actually the proportion of sail area to wetted area that is important? Isn't it drag that is of greatest significance, not weight, and so the greater the wetted area the greater the drag. Displacement gives an approximation of wetted area, but the shape under water can have a significant impact on the wetted area. Long and thin hulls increases the wetted area, short and stout reduces it for the same displacement. Are the wide hulls with barrel shaped bottoms the way the Lagoon 420 is able to preserve reasonable performance despite the large displacement - by minimising the wetted area?

Chris
Hull shape is part of the game. SA/D is part of the game,,,,and on and on.

Here is a wedge with lots of wetted surface and a high SA/D doing ~20-25 knots.

http://www.oceanyachtsystems.co.uk/Kingfisher2.gif

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Old 12-01-2007, 16:01   #283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by planetoftheapes
Here is why I believe it is logical to conclude the L420 is not excessively heavy (given 2500 extra lbs for batteries) relative to other production cats:

Performance of a multi-hull lives and dies based on the sail area/displacement ratio. If the SA/D ration for the L420 were much lower than other manufacturers her performance would be lower.

The same would hold for the L440 and L500. In fact, these cats sails as well as any other cat.

The prelim report on the L420 is she sails well. So, either the SA/D ratio does not play a big factor in multi-hull performance or someone is not telling the truth about displacement.

Is the SA/D ratio not a big factor in performance or do other production cats simply have a higher than stated displacement?

I also know that ultra-light cats are built like the Farrier F41. I haven’t heard race wins by this boat so maybe SA/D is not such a big a factor.

Ultimately, put all the boats on a scale and let’s see.
Are you for real????

Do you work for the Lagoon PR department???

Farrier F41 a ultra-light cat, I don't think so. They are just a good design built with appropriate build techniques for a performance cruising multihull. EG foam sandwich fiberglass construction not Nomex carbon fiber pre preg blah blah blah.

As I said previously, Boat's get weighed for racing, and heavy design's have raced so the weights designers are stating, are very close to the published weights stated.

Here is a few of the Australian Cruising cat's that are built out of non-exotic build techniques.

Grainger Designs Multihull and Yacht Design

Grainger Designs Multihull and Yacht Design

50' Cruising Catamaran (Crowther 591) - Multihull Sailboats - Designs - Bloomfield Catamaran Designs

Bob Oram Design » 44′ C

do your home work

Dave
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Old 12-01-2007, 17:00   #284
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do your home work
Dave - chill out. We all know you're weight obsessed but as far as I can tell you've not added anything material to the discussion. Given that you are the experienced boat builder, you're perhaps the most qualified to answer the questions you keep posing yet you don't.

What are your real motivations here?
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Old 12-01-2007, 17:21   #285
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'I Think Therefore I Exist'

[quote=cat man do]Are you for real????

Do you mean as in Rene Descartes, 'I Think Therefore I Exist'? Well I do think therefore...

I really have no idea what your response actually meant therefore the approriate question is do you exist?

Let's be clear about things, the Lagoon L420 is the lightest, fastest most comfortable catamaran ever designed and she also has the greatest range under power not to mention absolute beauty.

Only a fool would sail any other cat.

End of story.
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