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Old 09-02-2019, 00:02   #16
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Re: Hull speed Lagoon 400

two different boat designs two different usages.

Lagoons are made to cross oceans in comfort and decent speed with lots of carry capacity.

Schionnings are made for coastal cruising shorter ocean passages more speed less comfort less weight carrying, adopted for AUS conditions. You overload, Lagoon will be faster

You cant have it both ways no matter how hard you try twisting facts.
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Old 09-02-2019, 00:17   #17
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Re: Hull speed Lagoon 400

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Originally Posted by Factor View Post
I have contact details for Jeff Schionning and Tony Grainger. No doubt they would welcome your advice as to how they are getting it so wrong.
Funny thing is, they're not.

Look at the BWL : hull draught of most Australian designed cat's and guess what? They'd be pretty close to 2.5 : 1.

Mine for instance, draught about .45m, BWL around 1.1m = almost exactly 2.5:1.

I'd suggest it's probably the fat boats that are further away from 2.5:1.
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Old 09-02-2019, 00:18   #18
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Re: Hull speed Lagoon 400

I should also add Bob Oram to that list. His boats are quick easily driven and I know of a number who full time live aboard carrying everything they own.
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Old 09-02-2019, 00:23   #19
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Re: Hull speed Lagoon 400

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Originally Posted by arsenelupiga View Post
two different boat designs two different usages.

Lagoons are made to cross oceans in comfort and decent speed with lots of carry capacity.

Schionnings are made for coastal cruising shorter ocean passages more speed less comfort less weight carrying, adopted for AUS conditions. You overload, Lagoon will be faster

You cant have it both ways no matter how hard you try twisting facts.
The vast majority of Lagoons are made for charter companies to hire out for a week or two at a time.

I can't really imagine any real life situation where a lagoon will be faster than a Schionning.

I don't have a Schionning, but a similar style of boat, and somewhat overloaded, and you're welcome to race any time you like. (BTW by race I mean SAILING, not motoring.)
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Old 09-02-2019, 04:41   #20
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Re: Hull speed Lagoon 400

Lagoons are not the fastest, but very comfy and can carry a lot of load. They perform quite well between beam reach and downwind, upwind is another story.

The 400 is rated A 12 B 14 C 20 D 20,
EEC light displacement 10.3t,
carrying load capacity 4.7t,
max weight 15.1t

Sail areas

main 60.5m2,
genoa 28m2,
code0 70m2,
spi / wingacker / parasailor 145m2

700kg...1000kg are fuel and water depending on installed opt. watertank.

Lets say 500kg for options like generator, A/C, watermaker, washing machine etc. on top

3200kg remaining carrying capacity is a lot for 2 person cruising.
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Old 09-02-2019, 05:03   #21
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Re: Hull speed Lagoon 400

Chris white has a table in one of his books...the 1.3-1.4 from the hull speed formula changes as the length to beam ratio changes.

Assuming you don't get significant wave interference between the hulls, most cats will have a higher factor to start with.
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Old 09-02-2019, 12:55   #22
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Re: Hull speed Lagoon 400

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Originally Posted by CatNewBee View Post
Lagoons are not the fastest, but very comfy and can carry a lot of load. They perform quite well between beam reach and downwind, upwind is another story.

.
Agree absolutely. But mr Arsen believes that his Lagoon is also one of the fastest boats on the water. I'm offering him the opportunity to demonstrate that.
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Old 09-02-2019, 13:04   #23
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Re: Hull speed Lagoon 400

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Originally Posted by CatNewBee View Post

The 400 is rated A 12 B 14 C 20 D 20,
EEC light displacement 10.3t,
carrying load capacity 4.7t,
max weight 15.1t

Sail areas

main 60.5m2,
genoa 28m2,
code0 70m2,
spi / wingacker / parasailor 145m2

.
Whereas we have:

Main 55m2
Jib 35m2
Spinnaker 110m2

On a boat that weighs around 6 tonnes fully loaded full time liveaboard cruising.
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Old 11-02-2019, 16:16   #24
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Re: Hull speed Lagoon 400

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Agree absolutely. But mr Arsen believes that his Lagoon is also one of the fastest boats on the water. I'm offering him the opportunity to demonstrate that.
thanks for the compliment. I do not do racing, but try to optimize speed for passages, this is where speed is the most important in seas like we have in AUS in my opinion.

Probably my lagoon is faster than average lagoon in cruising load. Maybe something to do with the fact that i am physicist and like to apply my knowledge to improving boat performance. From ARC one can see rating Lagoon 400 is around 97.

Rating boats like you have, would be probably around 120, implying you on average 25% faster than me. Would that be right number, what you think ?
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Old 11-02-2019, 16:46   #25
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Re: Hull speed Lagoon 400

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Originally Posted by arsenelupiga View Post
thanks for the compliment. I do not do racing, but try to optimize speed for passages, this is where speed is the most important in seas like we have in AUS in my opinion.

Probably my lagoon is faster than average lagoon in cruising load. Maybe something to do with the fact that i am physicist and like to apply my knowledge to improving boat performance. From ARC one can see rating Lagoon 400 is around 97.

Rating boats like you have, would be probably around 120, implying you on average 25% faster than me. Would that be right number, what you think ?
I don't know. You say you'd be faster. Let's find out. I'm in Sydney.
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Old 11-02-2019, 17:58   #26
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Re: Hull speed Lagoon 400

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I don't know. You say you'd be faster. Let's find out. I'm in Sydney.
Calm down - I don't think he ever said he'd be faster than you, just faster than other lagoon 400s.

You have one of Bobs previous generation 44s? Bit heavier than Slim, but better load carrying? (I got to spend a few days looking over Slim, Thor and a sister ship to yours (I assume) a year or so ago. I prefer the aesthetics of the earlier generation, but it's hard to argue against Bob's design theory for Slim.

Of course your boat would walk away from a Lagoon 400.

But - if you had a Lagoon, you'd feel OK with loading it up a bit. And some extra weight probably won't affect performance that much.
With an Oram or equivalent, loading it up too much is a crime, regardless of how much it degrades performance.

I'd love your yacht. But for cruising the east coast of Australia with the family, a Lagoon 38 for half the price sounds like a compromise I might make. Gentlemen don't sail to windward, not if they expect to stay married at least.

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Old 11-02-2019, 18:26   #27
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Re: Hull speed Lagoon 400

Mike, I suggest you actually read someone's posts before commenting on what they said.

Mr Arsen said if you overload a Schionning, a Lagoon will be faster. Well we've sailed in company with a pretty overloaded Schionning, S Berg's boat, with a family of 5 living aboard full time, and we were just a little faster in our maybe not quite as overloaded boat.

So if mr Arsen can keep up with or beat us, I'd say he'd have proven his point.

Otherwise I'd suggest he's basically full of crap.
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Old 12-02-2019, 01:40   #28
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Re: Hull speed Lagoon 400

When a yachtie sees another somwhere on the water, it will for sure end up to a race - nice

;-)

Lagoon sailors are more into cruising, not racing.

a Lagoon is like a lame american V8 family car with a sofa as front seat, a huge trunc, soft suspensions and wobbly steering, not a iron hard ground scrubbing racing beast on steroids. It is all about space, comfort and enjoying the slow ride.
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Old 12-02-2019, 01:54   #29
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Re: Hull speed Lagoon 400

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Calm down - I don't think he ever said he'd be faster than you, just faster than other lagoon 400s
I dunno, if you follow the history of his posts and what he's saying about being quicker than an overloaded, faster design then I think 44c's challenge is pretty fair. His boat is overloaded and from what I saw sailing on it yesterday it's still pretty quick. It's a full-time liveaboard complete with pet feline. No laminate sails or anything like that, either.

Of course you're right. It would whip even an empty Lagoon 400 with laminate sails but some of the chat here seems to indicate otherwise. Some people talk a good game... It's pretty common on this forum!
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Old 12-02-2019, 01:55   #30
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Re: Hull speed Lagoon 400

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Mike, I suggest you actually read someone's posts before commenting on what they said.

Mr Arsen said if you overload a Schionning, a Lagoon will be faster. Well we've sailed in company with a pretty overloaded Schionning, S Berg's boat, with a family of 5 living aboard full time, and we were just a little faster in our maybe not quite as overloaded boat.

So if mr Arsen can keep up with or beat us, I'd say he'd have proven his point.

Otherwise I'd suggest he's basically full of crap.
I did try and find where he said he'd be faster and failed. I should have tried harder, I guess.

If you loaded an Schionning a foot below design water line, Im sure a Lagoon could be faster, but otherwise I dont think anyone thinks it would. Not worth you getting wound up about it though.

Hey, I plan on 5 knots in my boat, you all look fast to me. But the reasons Id like a cat are low draft and space at anchor, the speed difference actually isnt that big a deal. But nice.

Mike
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