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Old 10-10-2012, 03:43   #1
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440 Sailing with Jib only and no Main Sail

I was recently in Mallorca talking to the proud owner of a 2009 440, and were discussing sailing the 440 in general. Reference was made by me to sailing with Gib alone, downwind in big seas where you may be reluctant to have to bring her about in to the wind to reef the main, especially on a night passage shorthanded.
Reference was made to the 2009 Lagoon hand book that stated for his boat "Under no circumstances sail with the Gib alone, main or part main sail must be up.
I am wondering what the logic is for this, if the topping lift and the main sheet are secure and tight, is there possibly an issue with rig stability?
My hand book 2007 makes reference to up to 50% Gib alone is not an issue.
Is there such a big difference between the 2009 & 2007 440 rigs and there stability... very confusing.
I am about to write to Lagoon and ask the question.
Nige 2007 440
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Old 10-10-2012, 16:12   #2
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Re: 440 Sailing with Gib only and no main sail

Been putting thought into this for some time now, i'm thinking that they may be concerned that the mast may start pumping which is normally a problem with high compression.

Thought about running some backstays if this proves to be the issue, but i do concur re sheeting topping lift and mainsheet in hard.

I wasn't aware the directions differed 2007 to 2009? I wonder if they changed mast sections?

Cheers Frank
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Old 10-10-2012, 17:17   #3
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Re: 440 Sailing with Gib only and no main sail

Not quite the same question, but slightly related: do you guys use downhaul/preventers on long downwind runs for the main if up?

Also - have you rigged anything to tension the lazy (leeward) stays - I've been told a number of times by riggers that it is the vibration/swaying of loose stays that causes the real damage and later can result in rigging failures.
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Old 10-10-2012, 20:41   #4
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Re: 440 Sailing with Gib only and no main sail

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Originally Posted by POH View Post
Not quite the same question, but slightly related: do you guys use downhaul/preventers on long downwind runs for the main if up?

Also - have you rigged anything to tension the lazy (leeward) stays - I've been told a number of times by riggers that it is the vibration/swaying of loose stays that causes the real damage and later can result in rigging failures.
Yes absolutely we run a preventer more so because we have a roller furling boom, the weight/section of that boom is high methinks it would damage the mast.

An ocky strap solves slack stays from wearing/stressing the pins BUT i've never noticed them moving too much.

Methinks human error causes most failures.. Cheers
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Old 11-10-2012, 01:22   #5
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Re: 440 Sailing with Gib only and no main sail

I have heavy duty shock cord on the stays, this stops and shrouds on the non-loaded side form moving around. The issue if they are left to just move around freely is the work hardening of the stainless bottle screw.

I am also looking to change the toping lift to dynema. Expensive but you could also use it as an emergency main halyard and a safe line to get up the mast if needed.

Any of you guys had an issue with the main sheet track cars, it looks to me like the main sheet blocks press down on the smaller track car block wheels when you let the main out either side.

Where are you connecting the preventer for the main on a downwind run.

I also looked at the engine room, supposedly water tight bulk head. Not that impressed with Lagoons attempts with expanded foam... a lot of holes where water could pass through if the engine room is flooded (checked this after the story of the Lagoon having to be beached in Thailand after the sail drive seal was dislodged with a rope round the prop from a tender.

Only had the boat 4 months, so always a few questions if you donít mind, to you chaps that have had the Lagoons longer than me.


Cheers Nige
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Old 11-10-2012, 01:35   #6
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Re: 440 Sailing with Gib only and no main sail

I tie the preventer to the mid-ships cleat. The other end to the mainsheet strop, i also use it to stop the boom rocking around at anchor.

Yer i've also looked at the water tights, it's on the list also the fire extinguisher hole on P+S aft bunks.

Some of the worst stuff is where contractors have fitted the chilled water air con and the epersheper heaters, absolute crap workmanship! By the time i get this boat back to Oz all things will be to my style not some flunky installers.

Meanwhile i'm loving it, hey make sure you check all bolts on your stainless bow roller fitting, i've just had our fitting re-straightened here in Australia on this trip home.

Our bolts under the forebear were loose once load went on it the ss fabrication wrapped itself around the beam.

Not one bolt that i've undone has ever seen any 'DURALAC' in it's life, i don't think the factory use anything on the threads....Check it ASAP the replacement is nearly 3000 dollars i straightened ours for 400 dollars.....

Cheers Frank
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Old 11-10-2012, 04:32   #7
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Might be the mast issue. But one of my concerns with jib only sailing is de-powering in an unexpected squall or gust. There can be situations where there are no good quick options. With a main up one has many more options because of the main's better behavior is tough conditions.
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Old 11-10-2012, 04:48   #8
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Re: 440 Sailing with Gib only and no main sail

Release the sheet.....Furl.
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Old 11-10-2012, 05:39   #9
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Re: 440 Sailing with Gib only and no main sail

Spectra topping lift is on my list as well - in a pinch could put the old topping lift back up and use the Spectra to replace a shroud too (assuming the rig didn't come down right away!)

I get the main leech provides a more consistent force for the mast, but the jib forces are point loaded pretty close to where the topping lift is. I'm still thinking about adding backstays as I'm planning (hoping for!) many days of downwind sailing.

Anyone with other makes (FP, Leopard, etc.) have similar wording in their manuals/from reps re: main up with jibs?

For Lagoon anchor roller/bolts/design issues, let's take it here: Lagoon Issues & Fixes
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Old 11-10-2012, 06:55   #10
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Re: 440 Sailing with Gib only and no main sail

It is quite standard practice to sail for weeks on end on a Transatlantic crossing with twin furling head sails. Most head sail roller furling gear has the option for two foils. This also allows the reefing of both head sails at the same time. Much better for night sailing when shorthanded.

The reason I raised the original question of Gib only, is I have never come across this before as a recommendation by any other manufacturer.... No Gib without some main as well. (On the 2009 model Under no circumstances Gib without some main as well??

I am waiting for a reply from Lagoon..

Nige
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Old 11-10-2012, 07:56   #11
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Re: 440 Sailing with Gib only and no main sail

fractional rig? could be the issue...
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Old 11-10-2012, 08:00   #12
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Re: 440 Sailing with Gib only and no main sail

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Originally Posted by daddle View Post
Might be the mast issue. But one of my concerns with jib only sailing is de-powering in an unexpected squall or gust. There can be situations where there are no good quick options. With a main up one has many more options because of the main's better behavior is tough conditions.
really? I pull in the roller/reefer line from the cockpit and the genoa gets smaller...Not too difficult...IF I had my main up I'd have to get it luffing before I could reef it... I sail quite a bit with just the genoa.. I believe that my backstay keeps the mast in line without the main or top lift giving any help. Am I wrong?
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Old 11-10-2012, 17:10   #13
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Re: 440 Sailing with Gib only and no main sail

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really? I pull in the roller/reefer line from the cockpit and the genoa gets smaller...Not too difficult...IF I had my main up I'd have to get it luffing before I could reef it... I sail quite a bit with just the genoa.. I believe that my backstay keeps the mast in line without the main or top lift giving any help. Am I wrong?
You are correct and i agree. Cats don't have backstay's the issue here is keeping the mast on board, the mainsheet tight with topping lift/halyard to end of boom helps with this.

Fitting some running back stays probably adjacent to the jib halyard turning block also may help. But we are talking of tradewind sailing here not afternoon jaunts...
Cheers
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Old 11-10-2012, 17:45   #14
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Re: 440 Sailing with Gib only and no main sail

It may just be a CYA due to possible steering issues on certain points of wind. You know it just takes one idiot to try to sail into the marina... jib only and loose steerage!
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Old 11-10-2012, 17:54   #15
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Re: 440 Sailing with Gib only and no main sail

Sailing with jib only in this context i thought would be in off wind heavy conditions, screw manoeuvring with jib only in a 440 you'd have to be an adventurer!!!!
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