Looking for Like-Minded People

[glassboat]

I have the boat, but don't have the crew. My wish is to leave New Zealand in April -May 2012. And go north to the Pacific Islands then west on to Red Sea, up to the Mediterranean and so on. I hope to sail for about 5-6 years, going to all those places you and I have heard so much about. I would like to hear from people that have the same wishes.
You would contribute to all boat expenses and costs of living on board.
I am 54 years old now, and have worked on the sea for most of my life.
The boat is a 2006 Leopard 43 and will have as many modern gadgets in it as I can fit.
So at this stage I just looking to see who is out there, and can we make this happen.

[azib]

Wow...that pretty far away. 2 years.

[jzmwlt]

I wonder how much expenses will be for a 5-6 year adventure??

[glassboat]

Yes good question. I suppose its up to how much you want to party it up, when in port .
I wouldn't expect any person to stay for the whole time, but again that would be up to that person and how everyone got along on the boat.

[imagine2frolic]

I never understand these threads. You need help, and it's your boat. Yet you want people to help pay for every expense? Seems to me a fair exhange would be they pay for their food, and you get free help. Otherwise it is more like a charter. BEST WISHES in finding someone to support your lifestyle.........i2f

[glassboat]

No you need help,
I can sail a boat.
Do you think the boat just dropped out of the sky.
I'm offering for people to live the dream ,all I expect in exchange is that they don't free load on me.
Have A NICE DAY.

[beachgirl1952]

quote: You would contribute to all boat expenses and costs of living on board.

what i2f said: crew pays for transportation to/from the boat, food and personal things etc., but not for boat expenses ...
can't imagine me paying for boat parts ...

[artisthos]

2012 I may be game. I just finished sailing across the North Atlantic in a 36' 1980 refit Pearson. It was my first crossing. I could have kicked myself for not looking into these bulletin boards earlier. I could have sailed every year for a few weeks on blue water, my favorite. I'll be monitoring your tread.

[imagine2frolic]

Originally Posted by glassboat

No you need help,
I can sail a boat.
Do you think the boat just dropped out of the sky.
I'm offering for people to live the dream ,all I expect in exchange is that they don't free load on me.
Have A NICE DAY.

I am having a nice day. I can understand you want no one to free load on you, but yet you ask them to support your boating habit. Still looks like a charter to me. Does your insurance company agree to this arrangement? Do the authorities agree to this arrangement? You could find yourself in some very hot water if someone gets hurt

If they are standing watch, and helping with sailing. I think they are not freeloading. Otherwise try single-handing to all these places. I know all about singlehanding. I did 2,600 miles along a rugged coastline on a boat that averaged 4 knots, and most of it beating!

Have you seen my gallery? I understand they don't drop out of the sky, and what maintanance cost. As I typed before. BEST WISHES in finding someone to agree with the situation........i2f

[Sandero]

If these people are providing anything of value they should be compensated.

If you believe that you're providing a dream, that seems odd. To some people waking up each day and being healthy is a dream. How do you value your dream service?

Weird way to enlist help.

What do I know??

[nautical62]

I think one needs to be careful about making assumptions regarding crew contribution or compensation. Every situation is different.


Consider for example, in the past, I regularly chartered with a bunch of friends and we all split the charter costs., After a few years of doing so, find it more economical to buy a boat in charter. I buy the boat, but have everyone contribute to all cruising costs, but not the boat itself, - food, fuel, etc. fee charged by the company for the week, etc. It's much, much cheaper for the people who joined me that dividing a charter so how am I being unfair? I think that's a much different scenario, than searching for crew to help deliver a boat, they can't manage on their own.

I'd also argue, that if a captain is looking for crew and crew think the terms are a good deal, it is fair, regardless of what anyone else looking in thinks.

This was a big topic in another sailing forum a couple years ago, so I did some research into it. People argued that asking crew to contribute was a tax liability, against coast guard regs and against insurance policies. (For some unknown reason, they also thought $20/day was some magical measure of this regardless of actual expenses.) Since that time, I have looked into all these issues and found no evidence to suggest these accusations are normally true. My research was limited to the U.S., but I would assume many would be similar in international waters or other countries.

Insurance: I called my insurance company and talked to a friend who is in charge of adjusting. Both told me having people contribute to operating expenses in no way invalidates a policy. Taking people out for profit may. My friend said with his company if it was discovered people were paying the boat owner, it would raise a red flag and they'd look into it, but in the end if there was no intent to make a profit, it would not be an issue.

Tax Burden: Last tax season, I talked to a tax lawyer. He said basically the same. If you are not making money, there is no tax liability. He recommended if it's more than the typical 2-4 weeks vacation type you report the income and expenses as being a hobby, so they are above board. The IRS wants to tax any income people try to hide, they do not want to consider something like this that does not make a profit a business, because then you would be able to write the lack of profit off as a business loss. They prefer to look at it as a hobby.

Coast Guard: People often quote a coast guard regulation which says something to the effect that anytime someone receive consideration from people on board they need to have their captains license. What people fail to read is the foot note which specifically says compensation does not include contributions to fuel, food and other such costs.

Legal Liability. Historically in the U.S., one can look at people who are on property as being Trespassers, Invitees or Licensees. The more business like the arrangement, the more duty there is to protect those on the property from harm. My knowledge of these things is that if there is clearly no attempt to make a profit, one would not have the duty one has to licensees or people one has aboard as a business.

Regarding people you haven't previously known: I think this is something that may raise a red flag in regards to some of the above, but in the end fundamentally changes nothing. Your taxes, insurance, business status and liability are not directly based on how well you know people. They are based on making money. However, how well you know them may affect their behavior, likelihood of suing you , etc.

Where's the line?: Is there a certain point, for example, where if you ask people to help with dockage, you will be considered a business? I don't know and at least my friend in insurance says there is no magic line. I think in most cases, it's going to come down to whether or not you are or are trying to make a profit as a business would. The more it appears you are behaving this way, the more likely you are to get into trouble, and that point may not be the same for all the above situations. There may be a point where the coast guard for example, feels you've crossed the line, but your insurance company does not. However, I see no reason (Again, in U.S.) to believe that asking people who sail with you to legitimately share expenses is an issue in any of these areas. I'll also point out there are many examples of clubs and other shared sailing opportunities that go well beyond food and fuel regularly. I'll also point out that it is when these clubs start behaving like businesses that they tend to get into trouble.

I offer the above not as any expert advice, but just my perspective on this issue after having taken quite a bit of time to look into it.

If anyone has any examples of capatains/boat owners being held accountable to business standards for legitimate cost sharing, I'd like to hear them.

My experience is that many shared cost cruising situations offer an opportunity for people to sail much more affordably than a charter or commercial sailing trip would and that most guests/crew appreciate this and gladly contribute to the right experience.

[imagine2frolic]

nautical62,

Very well written, and I myself do not know where the line is. I do know that many times this situation comes up. Many times in a way where the owner can justify making a bit of profit. Usually it starts out with a chance of a lifetime to live the dream. The statement of people freeloading when he's searching for crew. To me that pretty much raises a red flag. This is why I suggested checking with the insurance company, and authorities.

My post is about raising a red flag to newbies who fall into these situations without a clear understanding of what the owner may want, or expect. Not to mention what's legal, and not legal. Imagine getting hurt on this boat, and the insurance won't cover any medical, because the insurace sees it as a business. A whole can of worms can be opened up by a small accident..............i2f

[nautical62]

Image2frolic:

My points are more in regard to past comments I've read on this issue than to anything you said.

The points you mention are good ones to make people aware of. No disagreement from me there.

I also know that a few years ago, there were a number of what were clearly commercial ventures trying to sell themselves as cost sharing experiences in crew wanted venues. I certainly think it's worth making people wary of such ventures, but in doing so I think it's important we don't jump to conclusions about other people's circumstances or intent.

All the best.

Also, my apology to glassboat if I took his post a bit off topic, but I feared it was heading that way anyways. Hopefully, it can get back to him finding crew.

[TabbyCat]

Insurance: I called my insurance company and talked to a friend who is in charge of adjusting. Both told me having people contribute to operating expenses in no way invalidates a policy. Taking people out for profit may. My friend said with his company if it was discovered people were paying the boat owner, it would raise a red flag and they'd look into it, but in the end if there was no intent to make a profit, it would not be an issue.

I may be splitting hairs, but it's not about whether your make profit. In fact,there are lots of charter companies in the red that never turn a profit, but they are still chartering. So how do you define a charter? The policy language usually specifically says either if you have "fare paying passengers" or "accept compensation", then you are chartering..... now how to define compensation? I think that's what your friend meant about the red flag. How you market your boat to get your crew could be a determining factor- for example, a boat website that specifically mentions the exchange of money for the privelege of going on the trip would put you solidly on the charter side of the equation.

Better to just go ahead & get the charter endorsement on your policy if there's any doubt.

Anyway, have you tried www.7knots.com? A friend of mine uses them to get crew all the time.

~ Susan

[Pelagic]

I agree with nautical62’s very good analysis especially that every situation is different and each party has the right to place a value on their association, without being made to feel predatory or taken advantage of by those who don’t know the details.

I get asked all the time if I would do a crewed charter, but I am not interested in working my boat. My girlfriend and I can sail the boat ourselves and we enjoy close friends (couples) joining us for short durations, who always repay us in many different ways.

However, if we met a very nice amiable couple that wanted to pay to sail on a cruising journey with us… so as to do a Cruise and Learn in the remote areas we favor, I would consider it.

I have a dockside maintenance guy who comes along on longer trips to help with the drudgery work and anchor security when we are ashore, so their “work” focus would be more on actual sailing and seamanship studies.

I would factor in a reasonable value to handle their share of consumable running expenses plus have them provide a damage deposit and security amount so that they can be repatriated at their expense.

The actual amount of the damage deposit would reflect their ability to pay, but most importantly to me would demonstrated their commitment and a vested interest in being good shipmates.

It is not because I need the money, but to invite strangers on board I think you need to cover the risk and make sure they recognize what a privilege it is.