Lavezzi 40: Rudder Bearings

[Mee Too]

I replaced the bearings in both rudders, two years ago. And have only done a few hundred miles since. After being lifted out of the water for a short time. I checked the bearings and there is no play. The starboard side has seized completely. Two strong guys struggle to move it with the emergency tiller. Has anyone else experienced this problem after such a short time.

[tkeithlu]

Why did it seize? Did you use a non-stainless ball bearing set? Is the starboard rudder shaft bent?

[Manateeman]

Hi. What kind of boat, how old, photos? Just not enough info here.

[Manateeman]

Hi. Please post more info on make of boat photos, anything more.

[Mee Too]

She is a 2004 Fontaine Pajot Lavezzi catamaran. The bearings fitted two years ago, are composite JP3 bearings as specified by FP. Some people have suggested that they can swell. But my question is why only the starboard side. We have not grounded her, so no damage to the shaft or rudder. We are in Sant Carles marina Spain, which is known for excessive growth. And due to Covid we have not been on the boat for eleven months. Although this hasn’t happened in the previous six years we have been here. Does anyone have any suggestions for a non corrosive cleaner, that I could pump between the stainless shaft and the aluminium water ingress tube. If by any chance it has been caused by growth. Even though the boat was lifted and jet washed last week

[Manateeman]

Hi. Sorry for the double post. The bearing manufacturer has quite an extensive web page and maybe they can make some suggestions. There maybe some owners who can help.
Marine growth includes little critters who love to make stone houses. Barnacles actually walk when they are tiny. One suggestion from the manufacturer is hot vinegar but I’m not sure if it is for your bearing model. I love aluminum, but if one relies on anodizing, remember it’s very thin. A scratch will result in oxidation which is why aluminum hulls and mast are different series aluminum. Vinegar is just an acid and might help break down whatever is in the bearing but I’d do a little more research first. Sorry I cannot help more...I have solid bearings and Tef-Gel which seems to keep the gremlins out.
If you drop the rudder and pull the bearings, please post photos. Till then
Happier trails to you.
Captain Mark and his fuzzy faced manatee friends

[Manateeman]

Hi. I called a friend who simply replaced everything with what he termed normal bearings. He found an article on wellfoundyachts.com about your model FP and replaced everything. Apparently FP says the shafts are Inox but by that they include stainless other than 316. A magnet will tell you if it’s 316.
Anodizing breakdown in the outer bearing is, as I guessed, the start of the problem. The bearings should be replaced as a set. I’m assuming they checked the shafts two years ago. One shaft snapped in the bearing but I think it’s a rare event. Most complaints are rudder clunk at anchor.
Happy trails to you.
Captain Mark and his cocktails all day manateesj

[tkeithlu]

If you need to kill stuff a bleach solution is the way to go - nothing survives it. Do be careful with that shaft - the two big guys on the emergency tiller sounds like an Oh, SH*T! moment in the making.

Aluminum alloys used in corrosive environments are often aluminum clad. That is, the alloy is plated with pure aluminum. Pure aluminum forms a self-protecting oxide, while the much stronger aluminum alloy will deteriorate, often in filiform corrosion - the familiar layers situation.

[redneckrob]

I believe my Mahe 36 has the same kind of bearings. The problem with mine was really the aluminum race starting to corrode. The aluminum oxide takes up a lot more room than the original aluminum and eventually it's packed so tight it freezes. It took a lot of careful cutting and chiseling to get my bearings out. Not sure of a better solution except replacing the races with a better material.

[Manateeman]

OK. RN Rob gets a gold star cause his Mahe 36 rudder bearings look like a common problem. Using Mahe 36 to search, I found a lot about the bearings. On 19-04-2011 a poster named Cotemar put up a drawing of the whole rudder bearing and shaft...an engineering drawing of JP3 type 1 bearings. He has a Mahe 36. I guess he got it repaired in Newport RI . So you can replace the same bearings or chuck the JP bearings and have a boatbuilder get rid of the aluminum tubes. I’d definitely go to any simpler system. The JP bearings might give you nice rudder feedback because of the rollers but there seems to be case after case of freezing issues and even their web pages tells the owners to pull the bearings after 5 years. That seems ridiculous. And then there is the documented case of a rudder shaft snapping. Yikes. In any rudder bearing repair, I’d have a good look at the shafts. Any decent builder or yard ought to be able to chuck this whole system and epoxy in glass tubes and good bearings.
Clunking rudders at anchor at night? Frozen rudders from sitting? Pour hot vinegar as a solution. Those FP guys ought to ease back on the vino at lunch and just drink beer or a gin and tonic when you watch the sunset. All the manatees just gave a big paddle slap on that idea.
I have Mamba all gear steering, my rudder shaft is 3” solid aluminum with bottom bearing support. It will give any orca a beating. I hope the catamaran owners will fix their rudders so they won’t drop out and hit some manatee on the head. If you like this post, please buy any friedly manatee some romaine lettuce and support save the manatee.org Manatees build boats. Orcas eat them.
Captain Mark and his beer drinking, pizza eating manatee friends

[CaptainRivet]

How much does changing the rudder bearings per side cost of you let the boat yard do this? The Lavezzi i am gonna buy Need the stb rudder bearings replaced as at the last Limit of tollerance due to the surveyor.
A ballpark number is better then nothing, i know prices vary.

[Escape Plan]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

How much does changing the rudder bearings per side cost of you let the boat yard do this? The Lavezzi i am gonna buy Need the stb rudder bearings replaced as at the last Limit of tollerance due to the surveyor.
A ballpark number is better then nothing, i know prices vary.

Replacing the original bearings on my FP Lucia for all the reasons listed above. We are putting Jefa race bearings in to upgrade the system. The Jefa bearings are costing $1270 USD for a pair.

ALSO....

The FP SS rudder tube gets electrolysis-induced corrosion and the nylon bearing swells and gets compressed by the corrosion. A common preventive measure is to run a grounding wire attached to the aluminum sleeve, then the rudder post, then to the other side post and the sleeve and then to the grounding zinc in the engine compartment. Measurements have seen almost 1 volt between the post and sleeve on some boats! On our Lucia, it was indeed the Starboard side that went first, like the OP. FP usually puts the Galvanic zinc/system ground on PORT side - that may also be a factor for the corrosion.

If you do a search on YouTube for Bavaria rudder bearing replacement, it shows you almost step by step what is involved in replacing the FP bearings and I believe he addresses the grounding issue as well.

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by SaltyDogsLLC

Replacing the original bearings on my FP Lucia for all the reasons listed above. We are putting Jefa race bearings in to upgrade the system. The Jefa bearings are costing $1270 USD for a pair.

ALSO....

The FP SS rudder tube gets electrolysis-induced corrosion and the nylon bearing swells and gets compressed by the corrosion. A common preventive measure is to run a grounding wire attached to the aluminum sleeve, then the rudder post, then to the other side post and the sleeve and then to the grounding zinc in the engine compartment. Measurements have seen almost 1 volt between the post and sleeve on some boats! On our Lucia, it was indeed the Starboard side that went first, like the OP. FP usually puts the Galvanic zinc/system ground on PORT side - that may also be a factor for the corrosion.

If you do a search on YouTube for Bavaria rudder bearing replacement, it shows you almost step by step what is involved in replacing the FP bearings and I believe he addresses the grounding issue as well.

Where does that 1 volt come from? In my Mahe the post is entirely isolated, it's just an aluminum tube with the bottom end in the water. It isn't electrically connected to any of the steering gear. Electrically and from an electrolysis background, that just doesn't make any sense. Is there something else going on that would cause this?

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

Where does that 1 volt come from? In my Mahe the post is entirely isolated, it's just an aluminum tube with the bottom end in the water. It isn't electrically connected to any of the steering gear. Electrically and from an electrolysis background, that just doesn't make any sense. Is there something else going on that would cause this?

You have your rudder linkages and other Alu parts in between, in BB the engine room is the ground plate situated. On boats the ground finds a lot strange ways to create different potentials if you don‘t connect them physically to the same point. So there can and will be floating current from STB to BB or vice Versa. 1V is a lot though, how long did the anodes last on that boat?

Bought a different Lavezzi to the post above.
On this one I own now there are new Aluminium tubes of high grade air craft aluminum build in and they are Teflon coated with new bearings to prevent the problems. 1V is a lot and the suggested grounding of all the posts to a common ground is a good idea Have to route some cables anyhow so I will do this on mine too.

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

You have your rudder linkages and other Alu parts in between, in BB the engine room is the ground plate situated. On boats the ground finds a lot strange ways to create different potentials if you don‘t connect them physically to the same point. So there can and will be floating current from STB to BB or vice Versa. 1V is a lot though, how long did the anodes last on that boat?

Bought a different Lavezzi to the post above.
On this one I own now there are new Aluminium tubes of high grade air craft aluminum build in and they are Teflon coated with new bearings to prevent the problems. 1V is a lot and the suggested grounding of all the posts to a common ground is a good idea Have to route some cables anyhow so I will do this on mine too.

Perhaps the Lavezzi is different although they appear to use the same bearings so I'm not sure how....but on the Mahe the tube is completely isolated from the steering linkage and rudder post by the nylon bearing we're talking about and another nylon bushing at the top of the tube. The tube is quite a bit bigger than the post which rotates inside it without coming close to touching it. Each tube is literally an isolated tube going into the water from an electrical perspective. I would think electrically connecting it to a dissimilar metal like the submerged stainless steel rudder post would be very unwise at best, which is what you'd be doing if you broke that isolation and tied the linkage and rudder posts to the tubes.