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22-11-2017, 10:20
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#1
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 46
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Escape Hatch Failure
I was recently on passage from the US to Antigua when a Helia 44 in VFH range radio'ed that an escape hatch had abruptly failed and that they were taking on water. Apparently the sealant around the hatch had completely failed and the only thing holding the plexiglass in was the handles. The captain relayed that underway the hatch is partially below water and when lying waves still sloshed up through the opening. We stood by and provided assistance while the attempted to fix the hatch with underwater epoxy, 5200, and a wood brace pulling the plexiglass in. This required the captain to launch his dinghy and get under the vessel in the middle of the night in 3-4ft seas and 15-20 knots of wind. Precarious to say the least. After about 5 hours of work, the fix was in place and they lied ahull the remainder of the night for the epoxy to dry.
I have no dog in the fight, but thought this might be valuable to share. Apparently the owner had already replaced the other escape hatch because of a slow leak.
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22-11-2017, 17:08
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#2
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Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: aboard, cruising in Australia
Boat: Sayer 46' Solent rig sloop
Posts: 28,400
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Re: Escape Hatch Failure
Thank you for posting.
It is interesting, and a "heads up," as well.
Ann
__________________
Who scorns the calm has forgotten the storm.
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23-11-2017, 15:21
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#3
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2017
Boat: FP Helia 44
Posts: 60
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Re: Escape Hatch Failure
Would you care to share the vessel name? It might be worthwhile for us to follow up with the owner.
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23-11-2017, 21:40
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#4
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Coffs Harbour, NSW
Boat: FreeFlow 50 cat
Posts: 1,336
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Re: Escape Hatch Failure
Anyone have any opinion on putting the escape hatch on the bridgedeck like on some Lightwaves?
Has always worried me to have them right at the water level, this isn't the first case of failure or breakage when placed low down.
Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
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23-11-2017, 21:48
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#5
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Writing Full-Time Since 2014
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34
Posts: 9,559
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Re: Escape Hatch Failure
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBeakie
Anyone have any opinion on putting the escape hatch on the bridgedeck like on some Lightwaves?
Has always worried me to have them right at the water level, this isn't the first case of failure or breakage when placed low down.
Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
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The point is to place the hatch at the highest point when the boat is inverted. That way it will be above the new waterline. Thus, they have to be very near the water.
It occurs to me that such a hatch should be built to a very special standard, something that would not be glazed and would not be a selling feature. And that is a problem for builders. They want them to be easy to open for ventilation and to be fun.
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23-11-2017, 23:12
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#6
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,398
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Re: Escape Hatch Failure
On a lot of cats the bridgedeck would be well above the waterline when inverted.
__________________
"You CANNOT be serious!"
John McEnroe
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24-11-2017, 01:15
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#7
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Coffs Harbour, NSW
Boat: FreeFlow 50 cat
Posts: 1,336
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Re: Escape Hatch Failure
I guess if there is alot of weight in the ends, large diesels etc. then when inverted the sterns will be underwater, but I think bridgedeck escape hatch placed with analysis by the designer of more performance focused designs showing the inverted waterline could work well.
Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
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24-11-2017, 16:51
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#8
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: San Francisco
Boat: Fountaine Pajot, Helia 44 - Hull #16
Posts: 609
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Re: Escape Hatch Failure
As a follow up, the boat is mine; Gémeaux hull #16. The hatch is a Gioit escape hatch. The hatch's aluminum frame is screwed to hull with 22 screws but the plexiglass pane is only glued with silicone or rtv adhesive to the frame These hatches are notorious for leaking at the gasket or the handles, I had no idea the entire plexiglass panel could exit the boat
When I hauled the boat and removed the hatch and disassembled the frame, I found the silicone was adhered well to the aluminum frame but just peeled off the plexiglass. I replaced the hatch with the same model, but I plan on attaching the glass to the frame with an aluminum bar that spans the frame near the top of the plexiglass. The plexiglass would be attached to the bar with screws that are through blocks of acrylic glued to the pane. The hatch would still be functional, but the plexiglass would not be able to come out of the frame because the bar is pulling it into the frame. The pane at the bottom already gets similar support from the handles.
My suggestion to owners of boats that have this same hatch is to have a clear plan on what you are going to do if the pane comes out of the frame. We fortunately had enough stuff to solve the problem. In big seas going to outside to do anything is not really an option, you have to fix it from the inside.
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24-11-2017, 17:04
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#9
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Writing Full-Time Since 2014
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34
Posts: 9,559
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Re: Escape Hatch Failure
Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat
On a lot of cats the bridgedeck would be well above the waterline when inverted.
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Above the water, yes, but probably not livably above the water, which is the intention.
The idea is fine, but the rule is problematic unless it specifies the integrity of the hatches. Many of the hatches I have seen were never designed for this. They also were not intended for placement where people could easily step on or fall against the inside surface.
Could be done. I'm not confident it is being done.
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24-11-2017, 17:41
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#10
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2009
Boat: JBW club 420, MFG Bandit, Snark
Posts: 871
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Re: Escape Hatch Failure
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllenRbrts
As a follow up, the boat is mine; Gémeaux hull #16. The hatch is a Gioit escape hatch. The hatch's aluminum frame is screwed to hull with 22 screws but the plexiglass pane is only glued with silicone or rtv adhesive to the frame These hatches are notorious for leaking at the gasket or the handles, I had no idea the entire plexiglass panel could exit the boat
When I hauled the boat and removed the hatch and disassembled the frame, I found the silicone was adhered well to the aluminum frame but just peeled off the plexiglass. I replaced the hatch with the same model, but I plan on attaching the glass to the frame with an aluminum bar that spans the frame near the top of the plexiglass. The plexiglass would be attached to the bar with screws that are through blocks of acrylic glued to the pane. The hatch would still be functional, but the plexiglass would not be able to come out of the frame because the bar is pulling it into the frame. The pane at the bottom already gets similar support from the handles.
My suggestion to owners of boats that have this same hatch is to have a clear plan on what you are going to do if the pane comes out of the frame. We fortunately had enough stuff to solve the problem. In big seas going to outside to do anything is not really an option, you have to fix it from the inside.
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Thanks for coming on here and following up. Good to know the facts.
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24-11-2017, 18:21
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#11
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Live-aboard Cruiser
Boat: Lagoon 450
Posts: 628
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Re: Escape Hatch Failure
A Lagoon had sunk in Seychelles a few years ago from water ingress from its escape hatches which were at the water line. Its clearly a high risk event.
Lagoon's later models, including our L450, have replaced the hatch with sealed safety glass windows with a hammer next to them. This appears to be a fool proof method to prevent any forgetfulness as well as degradation of materials, such as the case the OP reports. It doesn't seem like a difficult upgrade to make this replacement and have peace of mind.
__________________
Steve
SV Emerald Sea
L450
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25-11-2017, 05:23
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#12
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Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: San Francisco
Boat: Fountaine Pajot, Helia 44 - Hull #16
Posts: 609
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Re: Escape Hatch Failure
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerald Sea
A Lagoon had sunk in Seychelles a few years ago from water ingress from its escape hatches which were at the water line. Its clearly a high risk event.
Lagoon's later models, including our L450, have replaced the hatch with sealed safety glass windows with a hammer next to them. This appears to be a fool proof method to prevent any forgetfulness as well as degradation of materials, such as the case the OP reports. It doesn't seem like a difficult upgrade to make this replacement and have peace of mind.
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The yard where I hauled out had lots of cats on the hard and I toured many of them looking at escape hatches. It seemed to me the lagoon hatch has an aluminum frame glassed into the boat, but the safety glass seemed to be glued into that frame with no other attachment. Is that how your boat is?
I don't know the underlying cause of my failure, was it due to the differing thermal expansion of acrylic and aluminum or is it difficult to bond silicone to acrylic? Could be very different situation with glass. However, I'm much more aware that just some silicone is keeping a 4sq foot hole from appearing at the waterline. I'm going to insure that something other than just silicone is holding it in place in the future.
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25-11-2017, 05:42
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#13
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Florida
Boat: 2019 Leopard 45
Posts: 215
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Re: Escape Hatch Failure
Leopard seems to have never been able to keep the escape hatches from leaking so, with the current iteration, we’re able to secure approval to eliminate them. They demonstrated the unlikeliness of inversion I think. To wit, our 45 on order will be without the hatches and ones already produced have a kit to permanently seal them.
__________________
Karl Leibensperger, DO
2019 Leopard 45 "Remedy"
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25-11-2017, 07:50
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#14
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Oz
Posts: 1,042
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Re: Escape Hatch Failure
I met a cruiser who had his hatch stove in by a dolphin colliding with a hatch. This post made me have a look at the L450 escape hatch (sealed glass and hammer system) - yet to determine if a sealant failure could occur and have the glass drop out - I'll have a look next time we are in a calm anchorage in warm water. The interior of the hatch is surrounded by flat timber so if I get a piece of 3/8" ply cut to shape 17" * 17" with a flange this could be screwed into place from the inside with self tappers and a layer of adhesive silicone. Cost - $20 or less for an emergency cover.
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25-11-2017, 15:24
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#15
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Coffs Harbour, NSW
Boat: FreeFlow 50 cat
Posts: 1,336
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Re: Escape Hatch Failure
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawbonz
Leopard seems to have never been able to keep the escape hatches from leaking so, with the current iteration, we’re able to secure approval to eliminate them. They demonstrated the unlikeliness of inversion I think. To wit, our 45 on order will be without the hatches and ones already produced have a kit to permanently seal them.
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Sawbonz,
Can you expand on that? Was it Leopard that approved eliminating escape hatches, or was it your insurance, or (unlikely) was it allowed by the CE certification? If it was Leopard that approved it, do you still have CE approval on your boat?
Re insurance, my understanding is that for a bluewater cruiser, i.e. venturing more than 200nm offshore, the boat needs to meet Cat 1 regulations in order to get Pantaenius insurance. And I believe Cat 1 calls for an escape hatch in each hull.
Can anyone shed any light on this issue and the ramifications for !. marine insurance and, 2. CE cerification?
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