Save the Planet!

[robert sailor]

We are not going with it because within our lifetime we will be OK but our kids kids may not be. Governments only make major changes when in crisis so don't expect much leadership from them as almost all of them are only worried about the next election.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Doodles

Mike, if you are correct and I think you are, then are we fighting a losing battle? Are all the "green" things we do just postponing the inevitable? I look at some of the mess here in the US and think yea we can clean this up, but then I look at the mess in Thailand and think .. no way this can be turned around or stopped. The plastic alone is strangling everything.

I think we are fighting a losing battle Doodles, but that doesn't make the fight unworthy. We all do a lot of things that have no measurable impacts, from performing simple acts of kindness, to picking up the garbage others have tossed. We do them b/c these acts feed our humanity. We behave well to our fellow humans, not b/c some spiritual Sword of Damocles hangs over us, but b/c we empathize with others. That is sufficient reason for me to limit my ecological footprint.

So no, I don't think the fight is worthless. And on a practical level, the more we can do to mitigate our species' impact on this planet, the softer our landing will be have when our populations starts to crash. That's why I'm all in favour of expanded research and effort into mitigating the effects of climate change and ecosystem collapse. We're locked into many of these changes now. There's little we can do to halt them, but we can stop adding to the problems.

This is what we all do by scaling back our resource use -- we stop adding to the problem. Every little bit helps, but the sad reality is that few of us willingly give up what we have. And there is growing research that indicates that people with more, actually become less ethical -- more greedy. Look up the research of Dr. Paul Piff.

Besides, as Dave says, what else can we do? The alternative is to descend into hedonism. Not me ... not yet, anyway .

[robert sailor]

When 25% of the population in the USA believes in end times within their lifetime why would these folks worry about saving a planet thats not going to be here.

[Doodles]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

When 25% of the population in the USA believes in end times within their lifetime why would these folks worry about saving a planet thats not going to be here.

That sounds like a good exit strategy. Maybe it's time for a lobotomy to change my beliefs.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

We are not going with it because within our lifetime we will be OK but our kids kids may not be. Governments only make major changes when in crisis so don't expect much leadership from them as almost all of them are only worried about the next election.

I think this is a really important point. And this is why I'm not a disciple of the "technology will fix our problems" idea. There is a growing body of psychological and evolutionary research that indicates we -- homo sapiens -- are poorly equipped to manage distant, unfocused threats. We excel in the here and now, and are not bad looking to the medium term, but when it comes to distant threats in both space and time, we are less moved to act.

You can see it all the time in your own behaviour. A death next door is a far greater cause for concern than 10,000 deaths in a distant country. Natural disasters that gut a distant land are interesting, but have no impact on how I live my life b/c I believe it could never happen here -- to me. So too with future impacts. We all know our children, and our children's children, will be the ones to face the ecological crisis we've helped create, but we aren't moved to action b/c it is too far removed from the here and now.

It's not that we want to bring harm to future generations. It's just that we have not evolved sufficient capacity to deal with these problems very well. Cultural evolution offers hope that we can develop these capacities (genetic evolution is way too slow), but so far I see little growth in our abilities.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Doodles

That sounds like a good exit strategy. Maybe it's time for a lobotomy to change my beliefs.

I am still fighting the fight but must admit that the drive and spirit to do so, is slowly ebbing away. I have therefor started "prepping"

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I am still fighting the fight but must admit that the drive and spirit to do so, is slowly ebbing away. I have therefor started "prepping"

Your not alone.

Some years ago I made a fairly concerted effort to change people's minds and acts. I had a ( very small) bully pulpit, and worked hard, to no effect.

Now my money goes into the boat.

Still do what I can when I can, but at some point you gotta plan for yourself.

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by Doodles

Mike, if you are correct and I think you are, then are we fighting a losing battle? Are all the "green" things we do just postponing the inevitable? I look at some of the mess here in the US and think yea we can clean this up, but then I look at the mess in Thailand and think .. no way this can be turned around or stopped. The plastic alone is strangling everything.

Doodles,

Can you say a bit more about Thailand. I've know a couple of folks who spend time there and hear good things, aside from the sex trade. What is your observation please.

[Blue Skye]

Originally Posted by captain58sailin

Just in case anyone is interested, here is the web site for the Anti-Pebble mine people.Save Bristol Bay
Save Bristol Bay is the anti,
Pebble Partnership is the pro.
Anyone with half a brain can see that building this mine is a bad idea all around. The potential down side far out weighs any possible good.

I shared the website with my cohorts. I have visited Kodiak Island 6 times and hope the mine does not get approved. Thanks for sharing the info.

[Doodles]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Doodles,

Can you say a bit more about Thailand. I've know a couple of folks who spend time there and hear good things, aside from the sex trade. What is your observation please.

They are just trashing the beautiful islands and the land. There is very little infrastructure to deal with garbage and sewage so everything just goes in the ocean. Places like Phuket and Pi Pi Island are environmental disasters. My house is now surrounded by a limestone mine, a cement plant and a pig farm, all of which are polluting the ground water and there are no ordinances or regulations to prevent it. At least none that can be enforced. It is also now common practice for the locals to burn all their trash which includes more and more plastic. What doesn't burn get dumped in the local canal and you know where that ends up. Bangkok has long been know as one of the most polluted cities in the world and you have to avoid going to Chang Mai in the months when the field burning makes the air hazardous to breath. And the rampant corruption makes changing anything for the better nearly impossible. I could go on, but you probably get the idea.

[Doodles]

Just picked this up off a FB page I subscribe to. It seemed timely.

"If changing the world is your fight, it will exhaust you. But if it's just your way of being, it will be effortless! So promote what you love instead of bashing what you hate."

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Doodles,

Can you say a bit more about Thailand. I've know a couple of folks who spend time there and hear good things, aside from the sex trade. What is your observation please.

My brother owns and runs one of the beach resorts on Koh Samui (Secret Garden). From what I hear from him, it is much like all the other place cruisers go. Better than where we come from but things are changing.

[senormechanico]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

We are not going with it because within our lifetime we will be OK but our kids kids may not be. Governments only make major changes when in crisis so don't expect much leadership from them as almost all of them are only worried about the next election.

The same chicken little statements were being made back in the late '60's.

Just a few posts ago, I was reading that "my air is cleaner, my car pollutes less, my toilet uses less water, [etc]".

Which is it?

[captain58sailin]

You are welcome Blue Skye, what frightens me to no end is the mentality that the jobs quotient will offset the environmental impact. The fact is very few jobs will go to the locals, they will lay waste to the country side and go on down the road to the next conquest with nary a backward glance.

[Doodles]

Originally Posted by senormechanico

The same chicken little statements were being made back in the late '60's.

Just a few posts ago, I was reading that "my air is cleaner, my car pollutes less, my toilet uses less water, [etc]".

Which is it?

Better in a few ways/places but much worse in most others. IMHO

What do you think? You aren't seriously confused about this are you?