PFDs & Skippers & Crew Question.

[Wotname]

I have lifted the quote below from another thread as it caught my eye but rather than drift that thread, I am posing the question as new thread.

Bazzer posted in part ".......In some photo's that I have seen of race boats it appears that many crew members are not even wearing any kind of PFD. In fact last weekend my wife crewed on a boat and was told by a skipper not to wear her self inflating PFD because they are dangerous. She of course refused and ended up being the only one of five who wore any kind of floatation device."

Question - Given only the above information, if you were crewing on this boat on that day, would you crew again?

To get the ball rolling, my answer is no; not because I might have a different POV to the skipper but because this skipper did not enforce his opinion that part of his crew was acting unsafely. The pros and cons of wearing self inflating PFD is not the question, rather the point the skipper allowed his crew to be unsafe in his opinion is the problem for me.

I take the POV that my judgement calls on safety is the minimum standard I will accept for my crew and I don't judge them for taking a higher standard, but I will not accept anyone on board taking an action that I judge as unsafe.

[travler37]

Originally Posted by Wotname

I have lifted the quote below from another thread as it caught my eye but rather than drift that thread, I am posing the question as new thread.

Bazzer posted in part ".......In some photo's that I have seen of race boats it appears that many crew members are not even wearing any kind of PFD. In fact last weekend my wife crewed on a boat and was told by a skipper not to wear her self inflating PFD because they are dangerous. She of course refused and ended up being the only one of five who wore any kind of floatation device."

Question - Given only the above information, if you were crewing on this boat on that day, would you crew again?

To get the ball rolling, my answer is no; not because I might have a different POV to the skipper but because this skipper did not enforce his opinion that part of his crew was acting unsafely. The pros and cons of wearing self inflating PFD is not the question, rather the point the skipper allowed his crew to be unsafe in his opinion is the problem for me.

I take the POV that my judgement calls on safety is the minimum standard I will accept for my crew and I don't judge them for taking a higher standard, but I will not accept anyone on board taking an action that I judge as unsafe.

A standing joke as someone imported 150 personal recording devices into IRAQ that looked and wrote like a pen...
Excuse me.....click pen and hold out to said idiot......would you mind repeating that?
Mark

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by travler37

......
Excuse me.....click pen and hold out to said idiot......would you mind repeating that?
Mark

Hi Mark, could you please elaborate a little, who was the said idiot you were referring to; the skipper in the quote or Wotname or someone else.....??

[travler37]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Hi Mark, could you please elaborate a little, who was the said idiot you were referring to; the skipper in the quote or Wotname or someone else.....??

Elaborate,
If the captain of a vessel says to me that PDF are not needed and slow the crew down so not wanted,,,,,
That is the IDIOT i am refering to.Who ever it is.
Besides the common sence issue it leaves you open for a realy good law suit if something happens.
On the other hand if the CAPTAIN holds the said pen and issues a order that all hands will wear PDF'S.......smart in this day and age of after the fact lawsuits.
That enough of a explanation for you
Mark

[bewitched]

Sorry.... but what's the question?....

Would I sail on the boat because the skipper allowed your wife to wear a lifejacket when she refused to take it off? or that the skipper allowed some of the crew not to wear lifejackets?

[travler37]

Originally Posted by bewitched

Sorry.... but what's the question?....

Would I sail on the boat because the skipper allowed your wife to wear a lifejacket when she refused to take it off? or that the skipper allowed some of the crew not to wear lifejackets?

actual common sence question is why did said wife stay on boat to race........
My thoughts
Mark
Ps.My qualifacations for thinking this way is i have ben BOOMED twice.yup....took 2 times in 50 years to get my attention!!

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by bewitched

Sorry.... but what's the question?....

Would I sail on the boat because the skipper allowed your wife to wear a lifejacket when she refused to take it off? or that the skipper allowed some of the crew not to wear lifejackets?

Hmm... I must not have phrased the question clearly. Let me try again.
The skipper in question allowed his crew to carry out in his judgement, a dangerous act.

So would you sail him him again?

I know most of us not would consider the wearing of a self inflating PFD as dangerous but apparently this skipper did. So why did he let her continue doing something dangerous while she was on his boat?

[travler37]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Hmm... I must not have phrased the question clearly. Let me try again.
The skipper in question allowed his crew to carry out in his judgement, a dangerous act.

So would you sail him him again?

I know most of us not would consider the wearing of a self inflating PFD as dangerous but apparently this skipper did. So why did he let her continue doing something dangerous while she was on his boat?

Drat,
so if he lets her to continue to wear said dangerous clothing he is liable.....is that what your saying?
Just enough rum to ponder this.
or to much
Mark

[foolishsailor]

Rule 40 of racing rules dictates that when the Y flag is up all competitors must wear pfds. It is also usually in the race notes as a requirement. No committee i have ever seen does not list it as a requirement if only to prevent liability and also as common sense.

I have raced for over 30 years and never been on a boat where everyone didnt wear pfds. If i saw another boat without one i would protest them if only to remove one competitor, especialy if they were ahead in the series.

Tethers are another story however...

[foolishsailor]

That said, there are valid arguments against self inflating pfds. But it means you wear a manual inflation pfd. It doesnt mean wear no pfd at all

[Ram]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Hmm... I must not have phrased the question clearly. Let me try again.
The skipper in question allowed his crew to carry out in his judgement, a dangerous act.

So would you sail him him again?

If I was the skipper and thought one/all of my crew was doing some dangerous act - id throw them overboard myself-or atleast would not race until the issue was corrected-if that meant letting them off at port -so be it

[travler37]

So take the RACE out of it.......
Post title is skippers and crew so not to far a reach.
We all require the crew to wear PDF'S at all times....
right?

digs in the thingy pit and can not hear answers.........
Devils advocate
Mark

PS...Just a note for crew...when the ADMIRAL puts on her bust enhancer then all should follow.

[travler37]

Originally Posted by foolishsailor

That said, there are valid arguments against self inflating pfds. But it means you wear a manual inflation pfd. It doesnt mean wear no pfd at all

hey Foolish,
Am not calling you on the carpet......
but do you know of a death of a sailor that had a self inflating PDF?
Seriously,not directed at you.At all here.
As a now confirmed old fart thought they were for....well,not manly men.Then woke up one day after being forced to put on the new fangled uncomfortable thing......in the water looking at a good friends face.
My first thought was geee....why am i in the cold water and he is still on the boat....Wear one religiously after that.
So who has ben hurt/died from one?
Curious
Mark

[foolishsailor]

Originally Posted by travler37

hey Foolish,
Am not calling you on the carpet......
but do you know of a death of a sailor that had a self inflating PDF?

Mark

No worries, this forum is all about exchanging information.

here is just one of the latest deaths that upon investigation was clearly directly tied to an auto inflate PFD

Investigation complete: Chicago to Mackinac race deaths : News : UpNorthLive.com

you can google yourself to find PLENTY more.

I personally prefer autoinflate as I would be more concerned with cold water shock or a head injusry than I am with being trapped by the autoinflate...however if you have read the latest reviews of pfd's - if you dont have a hood and a proper crotch strap - you are still as good as dead in any conditions worse than force 5...

...regarding the OP's real question - which i didnt get till now...

...If a crew countered a decision that was safety based I would take them to the nearest Pier and drop them off, even at the expense of a loss should I be racing.

...however it is also the crews responsibility, if they feel unsafe to demand to be dropped off if they feel the skipper is requiring them to do something they are not comfortable with.

edit: To be honest, after reading about 7 articles on auto inflate PFD's they all talk about "near" deaths attributable to PFD's. And situations where if a person HAD been wearing one they would likely have died...however I cant find any evidence that someones death was attributable to an autoinflate PFD...

[travler37]

Originally Posted by foolishsailor

No worries, this forum is all about exchanging information.

here is just one of the latest deaths that upon investigation was clearly directly tied to an auto inflate PFD

Investigation complete: Chicago to Mackinac race deaths : News : UpNorthLive.com

you can google yourself to find PLENTY more.

I personally prefer autoinflate as I would be more concerned with cold water shock or a head injusry than I am with being trapped by the autoinflate...however if you have read the latest reviews of pfd's - if you dont have a hood and a proper crotch strap - you are still as good as dead in any conditions worse than force 5...

...regarding the OP's real question - which i didnt get till now...

...If a crew countered a decision that was safety based I would take them to the nearest Pier and drop them off, even at the expense of a loss should I be racing.

...however it is also the crews responsibility, if they feel unsafe to demand to be dropped off if they feel the skipper is requiring them to do something they are not comfortable with.

thanks for that,
Something i never realy googled but will still wear mine.Would not be typing now if i didnt.MY PERSONAL CHOICE...not to be imposed on others.

back to the topic,
If the skipper told you not to wear a a PDF...........
Open to thoughts
Mark