2015 Bahamas gun check-in update

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Exile

GBN -- Thanks for your most sensible comments, especially since you have stated you are an experienced firearms enthusiast yourself. On top of your many cruising miles, this only lends credibility to a topic that all too often is sorely lacking in that dept.

FWIW, my take-away is this:

1. If one takes reasonable precautions about choice of cruising grounds & anchorages, the probability of a hostile incident reasonably falls in the 'highly unlikely' category;

Indeed, and where " incidents " do occur, on reflection ( using my own experiences ) I m not sure the presence of personal firearms would have been useful.

2. This rather remote probability must be balanced against most nations of the world taking a negative view of visiting boats with guns on board, and the resulting impracticalities & hassle/worry factor;

Most nations , despite some over the top US propaganda , dont have a " negative " view, what they do have are busy port officials that would rather you just didn't subject them to the paperwork.

3. The scenario of pirates in fast boats brandishing AK-47's that some on this thread apparently envision is highly unlikely if one avoids a few notorious parts of the world. More likely is someone feigning distress while underway or a local fishing vessel, i.e. a scenario to draw you close. The other scenario is likely to be at anchor, obviously. The point being that a long-range, high-powered rifle doesn't seem like the best tool for what would more likely unfold as a close-quarters engagement;

IN reality after 25 years of extensive sailing , including some very scary run ins with immigrant boats, burglars, ships approaching me with no lights at night etc, I can see virtually no situation where any sort of high accuracy rifle would have been any use. to fire into an unknown boat at long range without specific and direct reason, would likely have you arrested at the next port

4. In addition to suitability for the job, semi-auto rifles & handguns, and/or any military style firearms, would probably be highly disfavored by many customs officials. To me, that leaves a shotgun & maybe a revolver. With some countries banning handguns altogether, that leaves the shotgun; and,

Most countries , in my experience have very different rules for arms imported and owned by their citizens and arms arriving on a passing yacht. It can be very very difficult to determine the response of the authorities in advance. note that customs officials are not the people dealing with such issues, typically the police are involved

Handguns of any type cause difficulties, the main concern of the authorities is the possibility of it being stolen from your boat, Thats what trends to drive their actions. SO you dont often get to keep it onboard. Ive found the defensive characteristics of firearms stored in police strongrooms to be very weak!

5. With the possibility of being greeted by dogs trained to detect firearms and/or ammo, now you're looking at having your gun impounded (at best) if you declare, or going through all sorts of (illegal) hoops to cloak your gun (& ammo) which could well be defeated. Then you might be facing boat impoundment vs. just your gun, and potential jail time.

Very rare, unless the authorities have previous suspicions, the general view in most reasonable places are that private yachts of main stream characteristics are ordinary law abiding people with no contraband.

Not declaring guns is of course, akin to madness, these crimes typically carry sentences that are way out of proportion to the crime. Never do that.

In sum, and with no restrictions, I might opt to have my Mossy Mariner and GBN's AK-47 onboard, I'm nevertheless in agreement that it's probably not worth it, and would consider some of the alternatives & precautions previously discussed. To each his own, however, provided the decision is an INFORMED one!

Having fired a fair cross section of stuff, the AK is a great all rounder. Mind you a M1 would be also useful, light, reliable and relatively small.

I have sailed with firearms and no doubt a shot gun is a great all rounder, usually is viewed benignly by the authorities , ammo is easy to get and it has tremendous stopping power at short distances typical of a boat.

[Exile]

Thanks for taking the time to shed further light on this, particularly valuable info since it's based on your own experience. This was exactly the direction I was hoping one of these gun threads would go. After all, most people contemplating bringing guns onboard already have some level of acceptance, so kinda futile to try and convince them on the merits of the larger debate. There are instead certain important practicalities to carefully consider if intending to travel internationally wkth guns on your own boat.

Good point that's worth emphasizing about the unlikely practicality of a long-range rifle. Short of the Somali version portrayed by Hollywood & youTube, how do you ascertain hostile or benign intentions from any sort of distance? 99% of the time it will be "safer" and of course friendlier to accommodate local fisherman, although you can certainly insist they stand off a reasonable distance. And we all, of course, have a duty to assist other mariners in distress. Caution/common-sense is essential, but in the event of hostility I can't see how it would be at 1000 yds.!

Thanks for clarifying the attitudes & procedures in other countries. Having not traveled as extensively, I shared the misperception. The only country that I'm aware of that seems to take a completely negative position is Mexico. In fact, it's my perhaps incomplete understanding that even declaring will land you in jail and subject the boat to confiscation, but I will stand corrected if someone is better informed on that.

It sounds like a non-military looking, manual loading shotgun kept in a locked cabinet may be the best way to go if you are going to have a firearm onboard. Maybe a pump with 00 in the mag & slugs in a holder for the outboard & hull. The most pragmatic scenario, however, may be no guns at all for all the reasons described.

[goboatingnow]

Indeed Exile, For example to give you some further specifics, I need no license to put a firearm on my boat with the intention of leaving the jurisdiction , even though the lawful method of getting it to the boat in the first place can be problematic.in fact I can place firearms on my boat that are actually difficult to legalise on land. I have to specifically license everything on land. In talking with my local police chief, There was remarkable confusion as to how to deal with yachts with guns, even though they were familiar with the issue aboard large commercial ships. I experienced that same confusion in other countries

in my own experience , I dont bring firearms for two reasons, (a) I see no reason to frequent , in my hobby time, any areas where their use might be even remotely expected and (b) and this was the big one, I dont want to have to deal with the situation where I killed or injured someone, even if I felt it was justified. In many jurisdictions, foreigners using guns against locals is a very biased process and often you have no legal cover.

To me, unfortunately , it seems that for some , its a form of security blanket.

[goboatingnow]

Good point that's worth emphasizing about the unlikely practicality of a long-range rifle. Short of the Somali version portrayed by Hollywood & youTube, how do you ascertain hostile or benign intentions from any sort of distance? 99% of the time it will be "safer" and of course friendlier to accommodate local fisherman, although you can certainly insist they stand off a reasonable distance. And we all, of course, have a duty to assist other mariners in distress. Caution/common-sense is essential, but in the event of hostility I can't see how it would be at 1000 yds.!

Again, to specifics, I have had three unexplained " dark" boats shadow me of the african coast at night, often quite close, but yet I couldn't see them visually, One I know I subsequently verified to be a naval security vessel. Can you imagine the world of pain, that would have resulted in me firing at ( or in the direction) of that boat!. ( I could locate it accurately on my radar)

in other situations, the approach of "shifty " looking characters in a open fishing boat and Ill be more specific , They were all big black guys and we all have our racial stereotypes, meant I was very concerned, until right up close I realised they were looking for cigarettes. ( in return I got some fresh crab). Again imagine firing at these guys , or even brandishing it, result no fresh crab.

the most useful thing we did with the gun , was a daily practice firing round to sink beer cans and milk cartons.!!!!

good luck and fair sailing

[paulanthony]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I have sailed with firearms and no doubt a shot gun is a great all rounder, usually is viewed benignly by the authorities , ammo is easy to get and it has tremendous stopping power at short distances typical of a boat.

Don't forget the hacksaw though.

On a world cruise they would eventually be confiscated. I personally would not bother with weapons but if I did I would try to cruise the places where I thought I might need them first and then ditch them. In Europe it would be just be a matter of time before you decided to chuck your guns overboard. Simply too much trouble and hassle to even bother with. Shotguns are regarded as just as lethal over here. There are a few places and I think UK may be be one of them that do not even allow you to enter its territorial waters if you carry weapons.

guns on boats | YachtPals.com

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by paulanthony

Don't forget the hacksaw though.

On a world cruise they would eventually be confiscated. I personally would not bother with weapons but if I did I would try to cruise the places where I thought I might need them first and then ditch them. In Europe it would be just be a matter of time before you decided to chuck your guns overboard. Simply too much trouble and hassle to even bother with. Shotguns are regarded as just as lethal over here. There are a few places and I think UK may be be one of them that do not even allow you to enter its territorial waters if you carry weapons.

guns on boats | YachtPals.com

The UK has no issue with firearms on board a private yacht, provided it is clear they are not being imported, for UK residents you must have the appropriate licenses, ( and that includes very flare pistols ). The presence of firearms aboard a non commercial pleasure yacht is highly unusual and will be the cause of some serious paperwork. Handguns are illegal and must not be brought into its territorial waters.

On a world cruise they would eventually be confiscated. I personally would not bother with weapons but if I did I would try to cruise the places where I thought I might need them first and then ditch them. In Europe it would be just be a matter of time before you decided to chuck your guns overboard.

IN europe, well, Ive done it, its full of hassle and inconvenience and its that part that makes you dump them ( or just leave them behind in a store!). The risk of total confiscation is rare unless you have firearms that are military in nature , handguns or automatics.

Yes I agree , in general you will get so fed up that you'll just dump them or risk not declaring them , which is madness.

Note that Gord Mays list of regulations ( and I have said this before) is very misleading as it refers to either residents owning firearms or the rules associated with "importing " firearms. On a foreign yacht you are NOT importing the firearms, and hence often subject to different rules

[Claude_Marie]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

IN europe, well, Ive done it, its full of hassle and inconvenience and its that part that makes you dump them ( or just leave them behind in a store!). The risk of total confiscation is rare unless you have firearms that are military in nature , handguns or automatics.

Agreed about anything military as opposed to recreational and hunting guns.

Else, when was that ??

[natraps116]

Originally Posted by RTB

The OP is back in Florida buying a new dinghy. Looks like updates about checking in with guns will be slow coming. Forget the guns, Bud. Hurricane season is sneaking up on your a$$.

Yes we are back in Florida, we're heading to cuba and then mexico Now. (east winds suck for sailing east)We have an appointment with the Mexican embassy Monday to discuss us arriving with firearms. Will keep posting with results. We really don't want to skip mexico. But if we have to we have to.

Sent from my D6616 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[natraps116]

Originally Posted by Robin3

Did somebody sink the old dinghy with a RPG? OMG you cannot continue a voyage without a stash of on board firepower or a working dink! Rather more important pre departure check in my book would be to sort the reliable dinghy question and forget the gun stuff?

I'll get my coat on the way out....

Fyi Robin. We had a brand new west marine dinghy and a brand new suzuki motor. Motor works great. Dinghy came apart at seams. Eff. West marine. We bought a new caribe for half what we would have paid in t&c

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[Exile]

Originally Posted by natraps116

Yes we are back in Florida, we're heading to cuba and then mexico Now. (east winds suck for sailing east)We have an appointment with the Mexican embassy Monday to discuss us arriving with firearms. Will keep posting with results. We really don't want to skip mexico. But if we have to we have to.

Sent from my D6616 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

I would be most interested in a follow-up on your appt. at the Mexican embassy. Should you get clearance for the firearms, I'd be concerned whether that clearance would be honored at whatever port of entry you decide to enter (assuming they can even confirm it). Having ridden motorcycles on the mainland & entered via truck for the Baja races, I've always heard draconian warnings about crossing with even a shell casing lying around. Then there's the recent, much-publicized former US Marine who made a wrong turn at the border, declared his firearms and asked if he could simply turn around, and wound up incarcerated for months on end. Anyway, best of luck and report back if you would & when you can. Thanks.

[Jon Eisberg]

Originally Posted by Exile

I would be most interested in a follow-up on your appt. at the Mexican embassy. Should you get clearance for the firearms, I'd be concerned whether that clearance would be honored at whatever port of entry you decide to enter (assuming they can even confirm it). Having ridden motorcycles on the mainland & entered via truck for the Baja races, I've always heard draconian warnings about crossing with even a shell casing lying around. Then there's the recent, much-publicized former US Marine who made a wrong turn at the border, declared his firearms and asked if he could simply turn around, and wound up incarcerated for months on end. Anyway, best of luck and report back if you would & when you can. Thanks.

I'm amazed he's even thinking about heading for Mexico with that sort of arsenal... :-)

Captain Released from Mexican Prison

Jun 4th 09

By Kelly Sanford

Capt. John Peerson recently was released from jail in Mexico after spending more than four months in custody. In mid-January, Peerson, who runs the 74-foot Viking Reel Screamer, was arrested in Isla Mujeres near Cancun, Mexico. Peerson was heading from Costa Rica to Miami when he tucked into Isla Mujeres to take on fuel and wait out bad weather.

After he tied up in the Port of Isla Mujeres, Mexican authorities instructed Peerson to move the sportfisher to a military dock where they intended to search the vessel for drugs. With bad weather in the area, Peerson insisted that the authorities perform the search on the boat where it was rather than risk moving it in foul conditions. During the search, the authorities found no drugs but they did discover a pistol, a rifle and a twelve-gauge shotgun as well as ammunition. The weapons belonged to the yacht’s owner and were on board for the purpose of personal protection. And, although Peerson was adamant that he already had declared the guns, he was arrested on charges of “introducing guns to Mexico,” and Reel Screamer was seized...

Dockwalk - Captain Released from Mexican Prison

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg

I'm amazed he's even thinking about heading for Mexico with that sort of arsenal... :-)

Wow, thanks for the story. Hate to say it but it's consistent with all the warnings I've heard. On the potential upside, we have noticed that things have gotten more "computerized," namely that information is being shared more between various ports of entry . . . uhhhh . . . maybe. The fact that the article talks about payments being made to get the cap'n out of jail and the boat released is hardly surprising but doesn't sound good. And of course since this incident things have deteriorated in Mexico significantly, drugs & guns-wise. Even if the OP were to obtain the necessary clearance from the consulate in FL and issued an official piece of paper, I'd be real concerned that would make any difference with whichever officials happened to be in charge at any particular port of entry. As goboatingnow has pointed out, the latter is not a problem unique to Mexico.

Not trying to be a naysayer; on the contrary, I hope they're successful with it.

[Jon Eisberg]

Originally Posted by Exile

Wow, thanks for the story. Hate to say it but it's consistent with all the warnings I've heard. On the potential upside, we have noticed that things have gotten more "computerized," namely that information is being shared more between various ports of entry . . . uhhhh . . . maybe. The fact that the article talks about payments being made to get the cap'n out of jail and the boat released is hardly surprising but doesn't sound good. And of course since this incident things have deteriorated in Mexico significantly, drugs & guns-wise. Even if the OP were to obtain the necessary clearance from the consulate in FL and issued an official piece of paper, I'd be real concerned that would make any difference with whichever officials happened to be in charge at any particular port of entry. As goboatingnow has pointed out, the latter is not a problem unique to Mexico.

Not trying to be a naysayer; on the contrary, I hope they're successful with it.

Well, a 74' Viking is a $2+ million boat, after all... So, that just MIGHT have been factored in to the decision to seize the boat, and jail the skipper :-)

Hopefully, natraps will not attract quite the same level of 'attention', and get off a bit easier ;-)

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Jon Eisberg

Well, a 74' Viking is a $2+ million boat, after all... So, that just MIGHT have been factored in to the decision to seize the boat, and jail the skipper :-)

Hopefully, natraps will not attract quite the same level of 'attention', and get off a bit easier ;-)

Yes, hard to ignore the "opportunity" a boat like that may have presented to the local officials.

The article also mentioned the cap claiming he had declared the firearms. Doesn't describe the details, but that also doesn't sound good . . . .

[RTB]

Originally Posted by natraps116

Yes we are back in Florida, we're heading to cuba and then mexico Now. (east winds suck for sailing east)We have an appointment with the Mexican embassy Monday to discuss us arriving with firearms. Will keep posting with results. We really don't want to skip mexico. But if we have to we have to.

Sent from my D6616 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

Good on you for meeting with the Mexican embassy. Seriously, be very careful. I'm sure you have visited noonsite? Mexico — Noonsite

*
The only firearms allowed in Mexico are sporting guns which must have a valid Mexican hunting licence, obtained in advance. Other firearms must have a permit, and be declared to the authorities on arrival, who will keep them in custody until departure.
The penalties for having an unauthorised gun on board are severe and can lead to seizure of the yacht and imprisonment of the captain. Officials now use a drug/gun sniffing dog to search boats on arrival. *

One story from noonsite -
Declare your Firearm or Face Jail — Noonsite

Some good threads by this member - http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ail-40170.html

I have a buddy that cruises Mexico, and loves it there. I'm sure there are plenty of others. Just don't do anything overly stupid. It looks like you are doing your homework. I hope you enjoy Mexico.

Ralph