New iPhones and the imminent death of the MFD

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

...Laptop running nav. software?

Sure it can be done.

But laptops are highly prone to failure in the marine environment too...

It's not that it can be done IT IS DONE, and it is the preferred way for many professional navigators and virtually all round the world ocean racers.

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

A laptop PC mounted at the nav station (protected from spray) can be highly reliable.

In 23 years, including a circumnavigation, we've broken one laptop by putting an elbow through the screen (also possible with an MFD, certainly with a mobile device) and we we've had a few mother board and hard drive failures, not many. We carry a spare laptop, (a hot spare with all the apps on it) and the files are backed up on a external hard drive. We've only once had to swap out the primary for the back-up on a passage. It took 5 minutes. None of our laptops have been ruggedized. Just straight out consumer devices, usually Dells. We use the nav station laptop for all other computing tasks too, including communication, photo editing, writing, document preparation. There is a small printer next to it, also permanently mounted. We take reliability for granted.

The nav station is the best place to look carefully at the charts to plan a route, much better than in the cockpit using an MFD or a mobile device because it is dry and quiet and you can use a keyboard and mouse. If you are on the approach to a destination on a dark, rainy, and windy night, and the weather makes it untenable and you have to divert, looking at options and creating a new, safe, route, is easier when done down below. If you can then port that route to your on deck device, so much the better.

No professional round the world race boat navigators use an MFD on deck. They virtually ALL use computers down below. Many have repeaters (ruggedized devices) which they use on deck. The same is true for most, if not all major, large ocean racers.

[s/v Jedi]

Well it doesn’t need to be far from home. In 2003 we were cruising the Florida Keys and, with our 6’2” draft, we thought we could go through all those 7’ MLW marked channels. Then we found ourselves stuck before even getting into a 7’ channel. Or,I will never forget this, in New Found Harbour we saw plants growing up from the water mid channel... yet there were bigger boats at anchor further ahead.

Then we checked Google Earth and we could exactly see where we got stuck, where the plants were growing mid channel, and how to get around those obstacles to get where you want to go. Yes, satellite pictures are gold

[mjscottinnc]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

I have had mishaps and close calls.

Now that make things clearer, your projecting what has happened to you as being normal and what must be happening to everyone.

Your experiences are not everyone's experiences, they are uniquely your own.

I've lived long enough to understand that the longer you beat your drum, the sooner it becomes just noise.

[Pizzazz]

Let’s put the above in context. When racing, it is all about weather routing and sail selection. You cannot do any meaningful weather routing on an MFD. So, in a way, ocean racers are all about planning. We have all agreed here that the best (easiest, fastest, accurate) tools for planning are tablets and computers, if only because wind information is much easier to obtain on those devices. We can safely put this to rest. The question is if navigation should be done on the MFD or the tablet.

So what exactly is navigation? To me, this is driving the boat, often in unfamiliar waters while avoiding traffic. For most of us this means radar plus reliable cartography. Both of these are available on MFDs and tablets but radar is still easier to use on an MFD with buttons. The rest is just academic. For example ruggedness - iPads are very rugged. If you have two iPads the probability of failure is very small (although not small enough for some posters on the forum but that is OK). So, repeating myself from a few posts above, the MFD may be a good device but I spent 90% of my time on the smart devices these days. And you know what happens to any item on the boat that is single use? It gets retired eventually.

[peter57]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Yeah, google earth and Bing really show the depths well (not).

The good navigator obtains the best available charts (Navionics does not fall into this category) for the places they are going to before they depart, and they plan routes with a proper navigation planning tool (Navionics does not fall into this category) using them. There are fewer surprises and many fewer wrecks.

I agree. That is why I would like a device with satellite imagery.

[DeValency]

Agree with Pizzazz comment here, as a racer and sailor - two different boats. The instruments and displays priorities needed for racing are different.

I still believe MFDs in the way they function today will not survive the competition against tablets in the next few years, as in comparison they offer:
- poor data and computing power
- poor display resolution
- frightening prices - especially if you pass the 9” size
And, above all, they fail to be a real “multifunctional” if my brand new big brand MFD cannot be directly connected to my brand new wind sensor but through another device and dedicated display it cannibalizes it’s own purpose.

To my opinion the future (there are already some initiatives) will be just a single black box with an integrated backbone that will get all the sensors signals and wirelessly (and optionally by hard wire) will enable presentation on any tablet or display. Raymarine already has excellent apps that empower any iPhone (limited controls) and ipad to fully control (and display) the different functions. There is also a remote (currently wired...) keyboard/remote to enable full control.

I very much built this setup on my boat - as far as I could, considering the limited connectivity of some sensors and my own limited time but the result is multiple displays and controls ranging from 12(fully rugged) -32” throughout the boat at a cost of a single 12” MFD. I know quite few others that created the same or even more at even a lower cost and better functionality.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Yeah, google earth and Bing really show the depths well (not).

They show it better than the latest cMap charts.
In the image below at that anchor spot we have about 6ft under our 7ft at low tide.
Cmap shows it as land.

The good navigator obtains the best available charts (Navionics does not fall into this category) for the places they are going to before they depart,

Which is why I also use opencpn and various satellite imagery as well as a proper charting setup.

[peter57]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

They show it better than the latest cMap charts.
In the image below at that anchor spot we have about 6ft under our 7ft at low tide.
Cmap shows it as land.





Which is why I also use opencpn and various satellite imagery as well as a proper charting setup.

Yes, you are so correct with Cmaps, if you take the Tiger Mullet channel way to southport, for half of the upper channel Cmaps has you on the land.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by wingssail

A laptop PC mounted at the nav station (protected from spray) can be highly reliable.

In 23 years, including a circumnavigation, we've broken one laptop by putting an elbow through the screen (also possible with an MFD, certainly with a mobile device) and we we've had a few mother board and hard drive failures, not many.

In 20 years I've lost one laptop to a cup of coffee and three phones (including two in "waterproof" cases) to water. One hard drive failure due to age.

I still carry a laptop (part of my delivery go-kit) with independent GPS and AIS. The main boat computer is an embedded machine with two displays also hooked to the TV on salon forward bulkhead. Mostly the TV gets used for movie night but sometimes I have radar up there with charts on the second display and communications and/or whatever I'm working on the main display. There's an MFD in the cockpit under the dodger to port.

The nav station is my office.

Before I got my go-kit together I sailed several thousand miles navigating on my phone when customer boat systems failed. I still keep apps and charts up to date on my phone. We have tablets for entertainment and Internet surfing. I have to have the main computer. I have to have a laptop. I have to have phone. I don't find a tablet to serve a useful purpose in my IT ecosystem. I'm not a big fan of touchscreens at sea anyway. Definitely an MFD in the mix.

There is no question that you can use a tablet for primary navigation. It may even be reasonable inshore (ICW snowbirds come to mind). "Sorry dear, I broke the iPad." "No problem. We'll tie up in that marina and order a new one."

MFDs are not trouble-free. I've had the Garmin random reboot problem. I've had the Raymarine black screen of death.

I've had personal electronics fail due to water and to impact. I've had screens overheat and go dark. I've had batteries fail. I've seen O/S updates break things that worked before.

Computers aren't perfect either. Windows 10 in particular is an abomination.

MFDs to support tactical navigation, piloting, and radar topside make sense to me. A computer below makes sense to me, particularly if you jump through the hoops to get radar from the MFD to the computer. Failure cascades worry me so a backup computer has a lot of appeal (which means three independent nav systems) but I can see a tablet in that role but it is a compromise and compromises lead to cascades.

My biggest concern is that more and more people will use tablets and the prices of MFDs will blow up due to declining markets until we just can't get a rugged topside display with buttons anymore.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by wingssail

It's not that it can be done IT IS DONE, and it is the preferred way for many professional navigators and virtually all round the world ocean racers.

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

A laptop PC mounted at the nav station (protected from spray) can be highly reliable.

In 23 years, including a circumnavigation, we've broken one laptop by putting an elbow through the screen (also possible with an MFD, certainly with a mobile device) and we we've had a few mother board and hard drive failures, not many. We carry a spare laptop, (a hot spare with all the apps on it) and the files are backed up on a external hard drive. We've only once had to swap out the primary for the back-up on a passage. It took 5 minutes. None of our laptops have been ruggedized. Just straight out consumer devices, usually Dells. We use the nav station laptop for all other computing tasks too, including communication, photo editing, writing, document preparation. There is a small printer next to it, also permanently mounted. We take reliability for granted.

The nav station is the best place to look carefully at the charts to plan a route, much better than in the cockpit using an MFD or a mobile device because it is dry and quiet and you can use a keyboard and mouse. If you are on the approach to a destination on a dark, rainy, and windy night, and the weather makes it untenable and you have to divert, looking at options and creating a new, safe, route, is easier when done down below. If you can then port that route to your on deck device, so much the better.

No professional round the world race boat navigators use an MFD on deck. They virtually ALL use computers down below. Many have repeaters (ruggedized devices) which they use on deck. The same is true for most, if not all major, large ocean racers.

Thanks, but no thanks.

When I cruise, I like to be out in the cockpit, with my beautiful all-over tanned wife, with sun streaked hair, enjoying the beautiful day, keeping an eye out for the next “best anchorage ever”.

Occasionally, I take a glance at the MFD in the cockpit, ensuring we are more or less on course, or perhaps plotting a new one to take advantage of the latest wind shift.

I guess for others, they are happier down below in a dark room, with dilated pupils, centred in bloodshot eyes with that can almost see right through their translucent eyelids, jumping from screen to screen addressing sensor failures and writing bits of code to camouflage bugs in apps they downloaded from who knows what source, while the beautiful day passes them by outside.

Meanwhile, thud, crunch, crunch, crunch, because they forgot to zoom in to see that reef, that they could have clearly seen with the naked eye from the cockpit, had they just taken their eyes away from a screen for just a second, but were way too busy downloading the latest 15 minute interval weather reports, and 20 minute old satellite images, in order to be “safe”.

Sailing does attract all kinds.

Clearly there is no single answer.

Other than, because there are more people like me, MFDs will be around a long long time.

[jmorrison146]

To each his own.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

...I guess for others, they are happier down below in a dark room, with dilated pupils, centred in bloodshot eyes with that can almost see right through their translucent eyelids, jumping from screen to screen addressing sensor failures and writing bits of code to camouflage bugs in apps they downloaded from who knows what source, while the beautiful day passes them by outside.

Meanwhile, thud, crunch, crunch, crunch, because they forgot to zoom in to see that reef, that they could have clearly seen with the naked eye from the cockpit, had they just taken their eyes away from a screen for just a second, but were way too busy downloading the latest 15 minute interval weather reports, and 20 minute old satellite images, in order to be “safe”...

Bit of exaggeration, doncha think? And I think you are missing the point (maybe purposely) that I recommend route planning and navigation at a proper nav station with a proper navigation computer and piloting on deck with whatever one prefers. But you're right, some prefer day time motoring and choosing anchorages by eyeball. Some go aground doing that.

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

...crunch, crunch, crunch, because they forgot to zoom in to see that reef, that they could have clearly seen with the naked eye from the cockpit,...

I think you are referring to Vestas Wind. I'd like to note that they were on deck, as you can see from the video of the crash, using their eyeballs, not sitting below looking at a computer, when they hit that reef. It was a route planning error. It's hard to see how an MFD would have helped them.

Originally Posted by Auspicious

...The main boat computer is an embedded machine with two displays also hooked to the TV on salon forward bulkhead. Mostly the TV gets used for movie night but sometimes I have radar up there with charts on the second display and communications and/or whatever I'm working on the main display. There's an MFD in the cockpit under the dodger to port...

How do you power all that stuff, including the main boat computer and those screens? I don't even like leaving the laptop on all the time.

[conachair]

Originally Posted by wingssail

I think you are referring to Vestas Wind. I'd like to note that they were on deck, as you can see from the video of the crash, using their eyeballs, not sitting below looking at a computer, when they hit that reef. It was a route planning error. It's hard to see how an MFD would have helped them.
.

Slight drift, but from the report a whole host of errors were made, any one of which would have seen them miss the reef had it not been made. It was standard procedure to review the route on google earth if a route change had been made before departing and to download google earth data along the route to check when changes were made along the way. Neither of these happened, they hit the reef.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Thanks, but no thanks.

When I cruise, I like to be out in the cockpit, with my beautiful all-over tanned wife, with sun streaked hair, enjoying the beautiful day, keeping an eye out for the next “best anchorage ever”.

Once again, we get three things conflated and the optimal solution dismissed out of hand because of a misconception.



1. Planning - Efficiently on the PC and paper in comfort down below.



2. Navigation - In the cockpit using eyeballs and a simple device (either an indpendent or used as a repeater to the PC) with periodic checks below for Radar/AIS/Navigation PC.



3 Pilotage (the only case you consider) - as per 2 above - but with more frequent checks on chart/instruments.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by wingssail

How do you power all that stuff, including the main boat computer and those screens? I don't even like leaving the laptop on all the time.

The computer draws about an amp. The screens are power sucks - specced about 10A apiece. I can cut that in half by dimming them. Power management is set up to to turn them off after 5 minutes of inactivity. The TV is off unless there is a lot going on (or we're motoring). The computer stays on for WEFAX anyway. NAS is only on when there is lots of power - engine, generator, or shore power. The MFD isn't bad. I don't remember the number but again it is dominated by the display. We're definitely a 12VDC boat but not meager on power.