Boat internet system recommendations

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

. . . On the cheap side you can simply use tethering on your phone to setup a hotspot when needed, we use this option from time to time because of different providers and rooming limitations. Sometimes the one has better coverage contracts than the other.

In harbour, at least up here, that is perfectly adequate. If you have a mobile phone subscription with any Nordic carrier, you can get unlimited high speed data good for any Nordic or Baltic country, plus 10 gigibytes free in the rest of the EU, for €20 per month or so, with reasonably priced data (capped by EU rules) above the free usage. Surely you could have something similar in the Med, no?



The issue for me, which may be peculiar to my use case, is getting a connection on a multiday passage through the North Sea or Baltic, where I may pass within 30-40 miles of land but without stopping.



It may be that that is little enough of an everyday situation that I just shouldn't worry about it, but I do like to keep the weather updated on such passages. Maybe my effort would better be spent getting my SSB working again.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Maybe my effort would better be spent getting my SSB working again.

I can help you there.

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

If you have a mobile phone subscription with any Nordic carrier, you can get unlimited high speed data good for any Nordic or Baltic country, plus 10 gigibytes free in the rest of the EU, for €20 per month or so, with reasonably priced data (capped by EU rules) above the free usage. Surely you could have something similar in the Med ...

I have a french contract for 20EUR per month, 100GB LTE data, free calls and SMS in France and 25GB LTE per month with free calls and SMS in the other EU countries, although great global coverage and good rates in the French territories around the globe.

Check out free.fr web site for details, you can buy the sim on vending machines in newspaper stores with your credit card. You need a email address and a temporary address in France (e.g. the marina) during the ordering, the sim card is configured and usable immediately, you can order for a single month and extend online to another month and then it terminates automatically. If you extend a third time, the contract is converted to a monthly subscription. You can terminate it online or in writing by a letter, billing will be on your card you have originally used.

[Boater3]

Originally Posted by notz

Still looking for that magical LTE box....

tons of options for lte including peplink, cradlepoint, home built we826, etc.

[notz]

Originally Posted by mystery

tons of options for lte including peplink, cradlepoint, home built we826, etc.

I'm specifically looking for something that does not try to be a WiFi AP, have routing functions in it, etc. If you read the rest of my post, I list some of the other stuff I use/recommend and include those options

I would like a fully modular system where I'm not tied to purchasing a $1000 router or even making something from less quality components. I'd like just an ethernet enabled LTE radio so I can use my choice of router, AP, etc.

[Boater3]

Originally Posted by notz

I'm specifically looking for something that does not try to be a WiFi AP, have routing functions in it, etc. If you read the rest of my post, I list some of the other stuff I use/recommend and include those options

I would like a fully modular system where I'm not tied to purchasing a $1000 router or even making something from less quality components. I'd like just an ethernet enabled LTE radio so I can use my choice of router, AP, etc.

I had the same EXACT scenario as you. I first had a modular setup with FIVE devices: separate cellular modem, separate WiFi as WAN 2.4GHz, separate WiFi as WAN 5GHz, separate router, separate indoor AP. I found that it was annoying to manage everything separately on FIVE devices. I.e. boat is moving, you want to adjust wifi or cellular and you have to potentially now log-in to three or four places (no need to log into the LAN AP).

While I thought the Cradlepoint CBA850LP6 was nice and allowed me to have the router separate from the modem in different locations, I ended up using a Peplink Router. Nothing beats Peplink for multiple WANs with the algorithms they have and speedfusion options. At that point I was like this is dumb having FIVE separate devices and I switched to a Peplink that did cellular, WiFi as WAN 5GHz, and WiFi as WAN 2.4GHz, routing, and local AP. Then I found I wanted more LAN performance and separation between the LAN/WAN AP so I added a $50 Asus router I had laying around for the cabin AP. So easy to manage everything for cellular, WiFi as WAN, and routing in one spot. I even have a spare WAN port I might use to have a fourth WAN. Much better having TWO devices instead of FIVE.

Peplink also has brand new options for $299 and you can find some of their more expensive stuff slightly used nothing is $1000 that you'd want on a boat unless you want multiple cellular modems running on multiple carriers, etc.

The entire setup cost was:
Peplink MK2 $400
Asus router used only for local AP in cabin $50
Wilson marine omni antenna $100
Poynting dual-band WiFi antenna $100
Misc cabling, parts, mounts, enclosure, etc $100

Peplink's interface is super easy. Cradlepoint's wasnt too bad but more advanced than Peplink's.

[Brian Pokosh]

Originally Posted by mystery

The entire setup cost was:
Peplink MK2 $400
Asus router used only for local AP in cabin $50
Wilson marine omni antenna $100
Poynting dual-band WiFi antenna $100
Misc cabling, parts, mounts, enclosure, etc $100

Peplink's interface is super easy. Cradlepoint's wasnt too bad but more advanced than Peplink's.

I'm using a Wirie mounted on the bimini of our catamaran, primarily for cellular but occasional wifi. I'm no longer using the built in access point (although there doesn't seem to be a way to disable it); it's connected via ethernet to the rest of the boats network (a couple switches and an AP). It's all working reasonably well, but at times on coastal passages we lose the cell connection while phones and tablets are still working, despite the larger antenna mounted high up. And I feel like I'm on borrowed time with the unsupported Wirie.

I'm wondering if I should convert to a setup like mystery has, or try upgrading the antennas on the Wirie.

[Boater3]

Originally Posted by Brian Pokosh

I'm using a Wirie mounted on the bimini of our catamaran, primarily for cellular but occasional wifi. I'm no longer using the built in access point (although there doesn't seem to be a way to disable it); it's connected via ethernet to the rest of the boats network (a couple switches and an AP). It's all working reasonably well, but at times on coastal passages we lose the cell connection while phones and tablets are still working, despite the larger antenna mounted high up. And I feel like I'm on borrowed time with the unsupported Wirie.

I'm wondering if I should convert to a setup like mystery has, or try upgrading the antennas on the Wirie.

Wirie used old tech and the company is now defunct

As for why your phones/tablets maintain a connection while the Wirie doesnt, are they all using the same cellular provider? Have you checked signal levels? I have that same issue and am told cellular towers are responsible for the roaming/hand-off and I have a feeling that the device is sticking with a more distant tower instead of switching to a closer tower because the external antenna maintains a connection longer.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Brian Pokosh

I'm using a Wirie mounted on the bimini of our catamaran, primarily for cellular but occasional wifi.

I don't miss Wirie at all. I got a decent amount of work from people trying to get them to work but customers didn't like hearing they had purchased a door stop and needed to start over.

On the WiFi side the Wirie originally used Alfa WiFi radios which simply aren't very good. Even when they swapped to an external Bullet with the external router and the internal AP right next to each other the cochannel and adjacent channel interference was substantial. On the cellular side the radio just wasn't very good. The whole thing was priced quite high for what you got. The only attraction was "one wire." Hook it up to power and it worked. It didn't work well, but it worked.

Originally Posted by mystery

I have that same issue and am told cellular towers are responsible for the roaming/hand-off and I have a feeling that the device is sticking with a more distant tower instead of switching to a closer tower because the external antenna maintains a connection longer.

That isn't how hand-off works. The network will switch you to the tower with the best signal as long as there is capacity on that tower. You're unlikely to have a tower running at the maximum number of connections except in a major urban area or during an emergency. In fact one of the early traffic notification systems used by radio and public safety used call volume on cell towers as a metric for accidents and other back-ups.

Originally Posted by Brian Pokosh

I'm wondering if I should convert to a setup like mystery has, or try upgrading the antennas on the Wirie.

I haven't laid hands on a Peplink yet. One is coming for evaluation. Someone I have confidence in recommends the Peplink Pepwave MAX BR1 Mini. The downside from the spec sheet is that it uses an independent account. That's one more payment to make AND it means you only have access to the network of the SIM card you have. I currently recommend the WeBoost Drive 4G-X with good coax and the Shakespeare 5239 antenna. Do NOT buy the WeBoost external kit. Bad coax and not much of an antenna. Their new marine antenna is the same as the one I recommend at a premium price.

Note that I install, configure, and service this gear. I don't sell equipment so I have no conflict of interest recommending one product over another.

[Brian Pokosh]

Do you recommend keeping antenna lengths as short as possible? I know Wirie used to make a big deal about that. I have a semi-protected spot inside the enclosed arch under the bimini, and I already have power and ethernet there for the Wirie. I'm looking at 25-30 ft. to the antennas if I want it fully enclosed inside the boat.

I'd prefer a device with it's own sim card vs. a repeater so the Peplink line looks like an ideal replacement. It also looks like they offer models with out an access point, which I already have covered in the cabin with a tp-link EAP245.

I had a lot of problems the first year with the Wirie when using it as the access point. Only recently did I discover it has a LAN port on it (something they never advertised or included in specifications) and now that it is hard-wired to the rest of the boat's network it is working much better.

[Boater3]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

That isn't how hand-off works. The network will switch you to the tower with the best signal as long as there is capacity on that tower. You're unlikely to have a tower running at the maximum number of connections except in a major urban area or during an emergency.

OK maybe I interchanged tower with network but all I meant was its not the end user device (i.e. peplink) that is deciding which tower to roam to, its the network/tower.

Regarding towers running at capacity, lets define capacity. There are plenty of towers of MAJOR carriers that are overloaded. Either their back-haul is maxed out or their radios on the towers can't handle any more connections. This results in connectivity issues, extremely low dial-up type speeds, etc. With carriers implementing deprioritization, they are attempting to give some higher paying customers (or emergency responders) higher priority on the network but when deprioritization kicks in, that usually means the tower is congested or at limits or at "capacity"

Originally Posted by Auspicious

The downside from the spec sheet is that it uses an independent account. That's one more payment to make AND it means you only have access to the network of the SIM card you have.

What independent account? Most of Peplink's devices include features for life but some do require an additional license to be purchased. In the case of the new Transit Mini, there is a $49/year plan that includes warranty, IC2, and WiFi as WAN failover. IIRC, the plan is FREE for the first year so $49 kicks in only in year two on-ward. Typically warranty/IC2 access on Peplink devices is $100/year+ so this is a fraction of the price. I dont know if they will offer a lifetime/one-time license price for the WiFi as WAN failover.

What do you mean you only have access to the network of the SIM card you have? Aren't pretty much all devices like that right now? The only difference is potentially eSIM which is not being used in any of these types of devices as far as I can tell...

[Boater3]

Originally Posted by Brian Pokosh

Do you recommend keeping antenna lengths as short as possible? I know Wirie used to make a big deal about that. I have a semi-protected spot inside the enclosed arch under the bimini, and I already have power and ethernet there for the Wirie. I'm looking at 25-30 ft. to the antennas if I want it fully enclosed inside the boat.

I'd prefer a device with it's own sim card vs. a repeater so the Peplink line looks like an ideal replacement. It also looks like they offer models with out an access point, which I already have covered in the cabin with a tp-link EAP245.

I had a lot of problems the first year with the Wirie when using it as the access point. Only recently did I discover it has a LAN port on it (something they never advertised or included in specifications) and now that it is hard-wired to the rest of the boat's network it is working much better.

Plenty of info online about cables/lengths/signal loss. Some have specs listed on how much signal loss per foot some even have calculators. You will want to use quality cable, LMR400 if possible. Check out MPD Digital's cable offerings. Personally I have a 20' run. Originally I was going to have a 50' run but decided to mount the device separate from the equipment/AP in the cabin. That allowed me to cut 30' off. Signal loss not only depends on the cable type/length but what cellular band.

[Brian Pokosh]

Originally Posted by mystery

What independent account? Most of Peplink's devices include features for life but some do require an additional license to be purchased. In the case of the new Transit Mini, there is a $49/year plan that includes warranty, IC2, and WiFi as WAN failover. Typically warranty/IC2 access on Peplink devices is $100/year+ so this is a fraction of the price. I dont know if they will offer a lifetime/one-time license price for the WiFi as WAN failover.

What do you mean you only have access to the network of the SIM card you have? Aren't pretty much all devices like that right now? The only difference is potentially eSIM which is not being used in any of these types of devices as far as I can tell...

I think he means it has its own SIM card and thus an independent cell line, vs. a repeater that boosts an already existing cell phone or tablet.

[Boater3]

Originally Posted by Brian Pokosh

I think he means it has its own SIM card and thus an independent cell line, vs. a repeater that boosts an already existing cell phone or tablet.

Gotcha. From my homework, most are doing away with repeaters. If you can get good data signal, you can do WiFi calling, texting, etc, so no need for each device to have its own cellular connectivity when there is stable WiFi available.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Brian Pokosh

Do you recommend keeping antenna lengths as short as possible?

Antenna lengths are usually not a factor except for masthead antennas (air draft) and the only appropriate antenna at the mast head is for VHF voice. We can talk about gain, but more is not always better.

Coax (transmission line) length is an issue. The higher the frequency the bigger the deal. VHF is more susceptible to line loss than HF, cellular and WiFi more susceptible than VHF. There are factors like noise floors and internal noise. This is why satellite TV antennas have a low noise amplifier (LNA) right at the feed. That gets control over the noise floor.

Originally Posted by Brian Pokosh

I'd prefer a device with it's own sim card vs. a repeater so the Peplink line looks like an ideal replacement. It also looks like they offer models with out an access point, which I already have covered in the cabin with a tp-link EAP245.

Okay. A lot depends on your cruising plans and what devices you have on board. Having a line for a device like the Peplink is great if you have a spouse and a teenager on board with WiFi only tablets. If everyone runs phones that you already have accounts for it becomes less interesting. Might you have crew aboard? Do you have phones on multiple carriers for redundancy? Both lead to repeaters vice SIM cards. Are you going to the Bahamas or Caribbean? Repeaters look really good so you can get Digicel or BTC or Orange.

Originally Posted by Brian Pokosh

I had a lot of problems the first year with the Wirie when using it as the access point. Only recently did I discover it has a LAN port on it (something they never advertised or included in specifications) and now that it is hard-wired to the rest of the boat's network it is working much better.

This is a result of the cochannel and adjacent interference issue I referred to.

Originally Posted by mystery

OK maybe I interchanged tower with network but all I meant was its not the end user device (i.e. peplink) that is deciding which tower to roam to, its the network/tower.

Correct. The upshot is that "connected to a distant tower" is not a thing if there is a closer tower. It is not in the interests of the carrier to do that - they don't want to have to retransmit packets.

Originally Posted by mystery

Regarding towers running at capacity, lets define capacity. There are plenty of towers of MAJOR carriers that are overloaded. Either their back-haul is maxed out or their radios on the towers can't handle any more connections.

Two entirely different things. Overloaded backhaul is common and won't preclude a handoff. "Overloaded backhaul" is subjective. It isn't the carriers problem if you are trying to share 20 Mbps with 10 other users while you're streaming video.

The number of simultaneous connections is limited by the hardware and software at the tower. Again, only dense urban areas and in emergencies does that get overloaded. It's limited by the number of time slots and the pressure on that is being releived in most places by fill-in towers and microcells. Rarely an issue.

Hand-off is basically on signal strength. If the system gets loaded then organic users get preference over roaming agreements. That means on a T-Mobile tower *shudder* T-Mobile users have priority over Google-Fi users. Public safety priority works mostly but misuse means the importance to the carrier is not high.

Originally Posted by mystery

What independent account?

You have to pay for the account on the SIM card in the device. As I understand my discussions with Peplink the service fee you talked about is only for device management and IoT, not user data.

Originally Posted by mystery

What do you mean you only have access to the network of the SIM card you have? Aren't pretty much all devices like that right now? The only difference is potentially eSIM which is not being used in any of these types of devices as far as I can tell...

If you use a repeater like the WeBoost devices then it is just receiving, amplifying, and retransmitting the entire band(s). That means with a WeBoost Drive 4G-X or similar you can have people on board with AT&T, Verizon, T-Mobile, Us Cellular, Digicell, BTC, Orange, Lime, etc who all get the benefit of the device.

Originally Posted by Brian Pokosh

I think he means it has its own SIM card and thus an independent cell line, vs. a repeater that boosts an already existing cell phone or tablet.

Exactly.