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Old 14-02-2011, 17:31   #91
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Originally Posted by SailFastTri

Microsoft announced XP is end-of-life, and you can't get it anymore. It's dead.

Win 7 is the way to go. I haven't found anything that doesn't run in Win 7 and you can always resort to XP Compatibility Mode if the legacy software doesn't play nice with the new OS.

The big compatibility issues are more likely to arise if you get 64-bit Win7, as then you will need new drivers for legacy hardware. But if you don't have old scanners or PC cards or other such devices you are going to get better performance in 64-bit OS. Otherwise stay with 32-bit Win7 to be safe.

As for Toughbook -- yes it's better. I'd rather have the redundancy of two cheaper laptops and image-based backup/recovery for the same money as one Toughbook.
By purchasing Windows 7 Pro, you can get a 'downgrade' to XP.

Another way to purchase Windows licenses is to buy old computer cases from Goodwill for $10-$30, with the COA sticker still attached.
Whomever owns the COA sticker, owns the license.

XP is the way to go for us cruisers, trust me. Running Win 7 in compatibility mode will seriously effect the performance & battery life of the box. Why get the newest, if in our case, it doesn't work the best? Win 7 IS a better operating system than XP IMHO, but why take a chance with something as important as NAVIGATION? It's not like we are talking about Office, or a game, it's keeping our homes safe, dry, and floating.
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Old 14-02-2011, 17:34   #92
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Recently opened two laptops: a 10 y.o. Dell and a 2 y.o. Acer. No corrosion on motherboards at all, both laptops used during a RTW in a small (and in result) relatively wet boat.

I do not think spraying the motherboard with anything makes sense.

The laptops died because of natural reasons (hardware failure).

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Old 14-02-2011, 19:28   #93
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By purchasing Windows 7 Pro, you can get a 'downgrade' to XP.

Another way to purchase Windows licenses is to buy old computer cases from Goodwill for $10-$30, with the COA sticker still attached.
Whomever owns the COA sticker, owns the license.

XP is the way to go for us cruisers, trust me. Running Win 7 in compatibility mode will seriously effect the performance & battery life of the box. Why get the newest, if in our case, it doesn't work the best? Win 7 IS a better operating system than XP IMHO, but why take a chance with something as important as NAVIGATION? It's not like we are talking about Office, or a game, it's keeping our homes safe, dry, and floating.

1) If the COA sticker is on the case that means it is an OEM license ONLY licensed for that particular piece of hardware, and it is not portable to another machine. Beside that, you need original media to do a fresh install for a new computer. Who would want to move an old installation image that's likely got a dirty and corrupt registry?

2) Why would you want to put an old obsolete OS on a new computer anyway, when Win 7 is far superior in all ways and more secure too. As for power management, Win7 is far superior than XP and IF you lose some power management features when you run a program in XP compatibility mode it is because XP doesn't have those features.

XP is an OS that was released a decade ago. How long can you beat that old dying horse? Its "end-of-life" has been announced, and the end either happened or is near, depending on version. Microsoft Support Lifecycle
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Old 14-02-2011, 19:59   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SailFastTri View Post

XP is an OS that was released a decade ago. How long can you beat that old dying horse? Its "end-of-life" has been announced, and the end either happened or is near, depending on version. Microsoft Support Lifecycle
Not to mention that setting up a dual boot system is exceedingly simple. Run Windows 7 on your largest partition for the majority of what you use your computer for, and run XP in the smaller partition when it's necessary, or in virtual pc mode.
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Old 14-02-2011, 20:06   #95
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Not to argue or anthying, I'm honestly curious... What is this critical software that is not able to run in win7?
If its older navigation stuff... maybe its time to upgrade?
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Old 14-02-2011, 21:37   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SailFastTri

1) If the COA sticker is on the case that means it is an OEM license ONLY licensed for that particular piece of hardware, and it is not portable to another machine. Beside that, you need original media to do a fresh install for a new computer. Who would want to move an old installation image that's likely got a dirty and corrupt registry?

2) Why would you want to put an old obsolete OS on a new computer anyway, when Win 7 is far superior in all ways and more secure too. As for power management, Win7 is far superior than XP and IF you lose some power management features when you run a program in XP compatibility mode it is because XP doesn't have those features.

XP is an OS that was released a decade ago. How long can you beat that old dying horse? Its "end-of-life" has been announced, and the end either happened or is near, depending on version. Microsoft Support Lifecycle
Ah, but using a Legally obtained OEM COA only means you have to do an install with an OEM version of the O/S in auestion.

The MaxSea 10 does not run on Win 7. After spending all that money on it, who wants to do that again?

Win 7 does not run well, or at all on older hardware. Spending $500-$1000 on a new machine w/ Win 7 might be nice, but it is not needed for navigation/charting. I'm of the school get what you need, the rest is just icing on the cake.

XP is not anyplace neer obsolete. Just because it came out 10 years ago doesn't mean it's the same codebase as 10 years ago.

Now. If your system dies on you when you are in a 2nd or 3rd world country, how many ppl do you think are going to be versed in Win 7? Or if they are, how much do you think you will end up paying?

For chartwork, navigation, email & browsing, there is no reason what-so-ever to spend more than $300 on the hardware platform. It's justt not needed. Anything else is just because you want it.

O/S X has been out as long, yet it's not a dead horse. The same reason XP is not, because there have been updates to the codebase over the years (updates/service packs).

Saying Win 7 is more secure is retarded. NOTHING Microsoft makes is secure, it's all ****. I can root a Windows box in minutes regardless of version. Especially all you suckers using Internet Exploder (explorer).

Simplicity, compatibility, usability and affordability. That is why I say XP. Because it's thinner, cheaper, everyplace, and it does what we need it to on cheaper hardware that's going to die anyhow.

Really it's not like your vessel is going to explode if you bring a Mac or Win 7 box on board. Anything can be made to work.

I do this sort of thing for a living. Everyone I know who is outfitting wants simple & cheap & easy to replace/repair when it breaks.

Anyone can go to Bestbuy and drop $1000. But to give your customer (and yourself) the same exact functionality at 1/4 the price is something to 'brag' about.
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Old 14-02-2011, 22:00   #97
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I've used Panasonic Toughbook - not the $6000 model, but the $2500 model for years. Dropped them, stepped on them, and can't speak highly enough about their durability. Easy choice for me.
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Old 15-02-2011, 04:36   #98
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Originally Posted by Nobleshift View Post
Ah, but using a Legally obtained OEM COA only means you have to do an install with an OEM version of the O/S in auestion..
Not so. The license is tied to the particular box.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobleshift View Post
The MaxSea 10 does not run on Win 7. After spending all that money on it, who wants to do that again?
..
It's time to update that software.... or just right-click on the executable in Win7, and choose Properties|Compatibility|Windows XP (there are additional choices). It will run just like it does in XP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobleshift View Post
Win 7 does not run well, or at all on older hardware. Spending $500-$1000 on a new machine w/ Win 7 might be nice, but it is not needed for navigation/charting. I'm of the school get what you need, the rest is just icing on the cake.

..
I'm of the school that old hardware isn't worth my time, unless it's all I've got to work with. If I'm at a point where I can't restore old hardware from a disk image, it's time to upgrade the hardware. If you're a pro, as you state, your hourly rate is prohibitively expensive to a client compared to the value inherent in a new system, and you'd be ripping them off if you spent an extra 4-8 hours completely rebuilding software and reconfiguring an old system for the price of a new one. Even if your rate is low (for the industry) at $75/hour (average in the US is almost twice that for pros) you'd be charging an extra $500+ to try to extend the life of an old system when the client can buy a new one for around that or slightly more. The new system is much faster, more power efficient, more secure, has a warranty, fresh battery, more features and is new technology that should last another 3-5 years minimum. So I argue that expending expensive labor to extend the life of old systems is a false economy -- particularly if the old system is 3 or 4+ years old.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobleshift View Post
XP is not anyplace neer obsolete. Just because it came out 10 years ago doesn't mean it's the same codebase as 10 years ago.

..
You can argue that with Microsoft.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobleshift View Post
Now. If your system dies on you when you are in a 2nd or 3rd world country, how many ppl do you think are going to be versed in Win 7? Or if they are, how much do you think you will end up paying?
..
If your system dies you do what you can with what choices you have, wherever you are. No argument there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobleshift View Post
For chartwork, navigation, email & browsing, there is no reason what-so-ever to spend more than $300 on the hardware platform. It's justt not needed. Anything else is just because you want it.
..
I tend to agree there, but not with getting old stuff. You can get a really nice netbook for $300-$400 that runs a newer OS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobleshift View Post
O/S X has been out as long, yet it's not a dead horse. The same reason XP is not, because there have been updates to the codebase over the years (updates/service packs).
..
You can change the tires and tune a car engine, even change the suspension, but you can't make a Ford Pinto into a Porsche Turbo Carerra or a Rolls Royce.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobleshift View Post
Saying Win 7 is more secure is retarded. NOTHING Microsoft makes is secure, it's all ****. I can root a Windows box in minutes regardless of version. Especially all you suckers using Internet Exploder (explorer).
..
Now you're being ignorant of the facts and insulting. People who lack knowledge sometimes resort to that at some point in an argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobleshift View Post
Simplicity, compatibility, usability and affordability. That is why I say XP. Because it's thinner, cheaper, everyplace, and it does what we need it to on cheaper hardware that's going to die anyhow.

Really it's not like your vessel is going to explode if you bring a Mac or Win 7 box on board. Anything can be made to work.

I do this sort of thing for a living. Everyone I know who is outfitting wants simple & cheap & easy to replace/repair when it breaks.

Anyone can go to Bestbuy and drop $1000. But to give your customer (and yourself) the same exact functionality at 1/4 the price is something to 'brag' about.
I do believe you can bring value to the table if you do what you know how to do best. Most professionals in the IT business also try to keep their skills and knowledge current. You can deliver better value if you deliver new systems that have a longer technological lifespan and work better with other new things your client is going to want to use.
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Old 15-02-2011, 19:04   #99
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Originally Posted by SailFastTri

Not so. The license is tied to the particular box.

It's time to update that software.... or just right-click on the executable in Win7, and choose Properties|Compatibility|Windows XP (there are additional choices). It will run just like it does in XP

I'm of the school that old hardware isn't worth my time, unless it's all I've got to work with. If I'm at a point where I can't restore old hardware from a disk image, it's time to upgrade the hardware. If you're a pro, as you state, your hourly rate is prohibitively expensive to a client compared to the value inherent in a new system, and you'd be ripping them off if you spent an extra 4-8 hours completely rebuilding software and reconfiguring an old system for the price of a new one. Even if your rate is low (for the industry) at $75/hour (average in the US is almost twice that for pros) you'd be charging an extra $500+ to try to extend the life of an old system when the client can buy a new one for around that or slightly more. The new system is much faster, more power efficient, more secure, has a warranty, fresh battery, more features and is new technology that should last another 3-5 years minimum. So I argue that expending expensive labor to extend the life of old systems is a false economy -- particularly if the old system is 3 or 4+ years old.

You can argue that with Microsoft.

If your system dies you do what you can with what choices you have, wherever you are. No argument there.

I tend to agree there, but not with getting old stuff. You can get a really nice netbook for $300-$400 that runs a newer OS.

You can change the tires and tune a car engine, even change the suspension, but you can't make a Ford Pinto into a Porsche Turbo Carerra or a Rolls Royce.

Now you're being ignorant of the facts and insulting. People who lack knowledge sometimes resort to that at some point in an argument.

I do believe you can bring value to the table if you do what you know how to do best. Most professionals in the IT business also try to keep their skills and knowledge current. You can deliver better value if you deliver new systems that have a longer technological lifespan and work better with other new things your client is going to want to use.
You asked why, I told you.
I do not agree what-so-every about being insulting on Microsoft's security. I have worked with and for Microsoft on the Redmond Campus. I do believe you are yourself trying to be insuling and belittling personally to me. Microsoft treats security as an after thought. Anyone in the industry knows that.
Microsoft saying that XP is obsolete is like Cadillac making an El Dorado that bumper that stays on. Just because there is something that is newer and more technologically up to date doesn't make it's predicessor obsolete. Look at cell phones. I've written everything here in this forum from a hacked Android phone, yet I still can call my girl friend's old ass Nokia and speak with her anytime. Yes her phone is old and ugly, but it's still a working phone that is completly usable and fufills the needs of it's owner.

My clients are very happy. I charge $25/hr plus 10% of all purchases. I get them what they need for a hell of a lot less than anyone anyplace. And the systems work.

I buy 2 - 4 used laptops for the price of one new Mac. I install the O/S, updates, service packs from USB HDD. I then use a backed up install of whatever navigational software the customer wants (I have them all), then backup the whole installed mess into recovery discs.
With this kind of setup my customers can leave the U.S. for years and years at a time. They don't have to worry about stuff breaking down because like all true cruisers, they have the spares they need.
Even though I have to do this to multiple computers, my customer only pays maybe an extra hour because I can do them all at the same time.

No one on the hook in the San Blas wants to have to drag the damn laptop to Panama to get it looked at. It messes up, they pull out the spare, and they are back in business. If they have followed the instructions, it's only minutes between #1 crapping out and #2 up and running.

Comparing Xp to a Pinto is LOL funny.
I would compare Win 7 to a resource hogging, gas guzzling SUV.

I have no vested interest here, nor am I trying to make sales.
I give my customers & friends a redundant computerized navigational solution for less than anyone on the block.
It just works, and that's what the people want.

Now if we start getting into an O/S war that isn't dealing with the safety of the vessel and it's crew, I'm going to say Linux, unless you are a gamer (Win 7), or a graphics something or other (Mac).

I think you are treating the laptop disscussion as an everyday laptop, and not a piece of safety equipment.
Chances are, like everything else on the boat, the 'whatever' is going to break when you need it most.
How are you going to fix that, in motion, on approach, when all you have is one fancy Win7 machine?
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Old 15-02-2011, 19:22   #100
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Nerd wars! Yay! So now that we've solved the 'Best Onboard Laptop' question, what is the best Internet Browser? I say Safari!
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Old 15-02-2011, 21:35   #101
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I still use Windows 2000 on my graphics workstations, but I have to go to the laptop for CS3 or better jobs, because they require XP or better.

I am considering all Linux for the boat as drivers will be minimal.
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Old 15-02-2011, 23:26   #102
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I'd suggest solid state drives (SSD) for onboard laptops. They are hard drives that have no moving parts, so they are very reliable, and use less power. They are also many times faster than a conventional drive and will provide a significant improvement to performance. They can be easily swapped in to any modern laptop. The downside being the price and the limited capacity currently available, though a large one (250GB) should handle the needs of most users for about $300.
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Old 16-02-2011, 04:57   #103
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I'd suggest solid state drives (SSD) for onboard laptops. They are hard drives that have no moving parts, so they are very reliable, and use less power. They are also many times faster than a conventional drive and will provide a significant improvement to performance. They can be easily swapped in to any modern laptop. The downside being the price and the limited capacity currently available, though a large one (250GB) should handle the needs of most users for about $300.
Note that winXP (and other OS's) is very bad for SSD's. It performs way too many useless read/writes. Also browsers and other software that use a lot of temp space should be avoided.
SSD's have a limited number of write cycles.
I have an SSD for my navigation computer (netbook) but I use win7 because it understand the issue, recognizes the SSD and limites the page files and caching, and temp storage accordingly. It helps to completely remove the page file and upgrade the ram... I won't be using this netbook for browsing the web or running any other software than navigation related stuff. The drive will last years like this, but it does indeed have a shelf life... The benefit of using it is that I don't have to worry about crashing the drive, you can keep the computer running no matter what the sea state is, you can move around with it in your hand and not worry about falling or dropping it etc... It's a trade off. If you get a used netbook they're still cheaper than a handheld GPS, and if I gotta replace the hard drive in a few years, well, hopefully there will be even better $200 netbooks on the market at that time if not I'm sure the SSD's will be a little cheaper by then.
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Old 16-02-2011, 12:11   #104
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Good plan. My new netbook is called "The Plotter" to encourage me to limit my use of it for non-nav duties.
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Old 16-02-2011, 13:19   #105
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There will be a lot of persons who will be stuck with equipment that cannot work for a long while if Microsoft eliminates XP. 1 customer come to me with his win7 laptop and his chartploter,sat fone and pactor modem.none was working again because win7 could not recognize any of them only to find out from the manufactures that drivers for these equipment for win 7 will be available in a years time! so best option was to downgrade to XP,all worked again and he was on his way!
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