Understanding the marina/boatyard/dealer/broker mindset

[FabioC]

Interesting thread. I am in the PNW. Here is my take on this.

On the supply/chandlery side: I have noticed an extremely high differential between the prices in brick-and-mortar stores in the area and online. Fisheries Supplies is without question the brick-and-mortar establishment with the most reasonable prices around here, but still for many things online prices can be less than half than Fisheries'. I understand that this is a relatively low volume business, thus a store cannot survive unless its margins are very high, but still the discrepancies with online sometimes seem extravagant. Fisheries remains a staple as a local chandlery because of their excellent (I would say unmatched) level of competency and customer service, which makes owners close an eye (or two) on the prices.

On the marine service/boatyard side: I think prices are generally extremely high in this area, and quality comparatively low (this is a general trend in Seattle for any service, since demand is very strong and growing exponentially). Lots of incompetent shops, even those which price themselves very high (of course, there are a few very bright exceptions to this general trend).

Perhaps at the root of the problem is the lack of passion and commitment of some of these businesses. Many are not willing to stand behind their product/service. Even asking a follow up question (which in case of marine services/products is often a necessity) is sometimes difficult and met with resistance. By their nature, the boating community and the related marine services require some level of "passion" from the businesses and willingness to transfer knowledge beyond the service/product itself, without which the end result is often lacking and unsatisfactory for the owner.

One thing that I think owners can do to improve the situation is finding a way to network more and exchange information on vendors and businesses. Perhaps because of the fact that the boating community in the Puget Sound is comparatively small, owners (myself included) are reluctant to report bad experiences to other owners. As a result, bad businesses prosper, and quality of service as a competitive differentiator to attract more customers is not effective.

Perhaps a way to start this "networking" among owners is, rather than pointing fingers at the bad business, spend time in this and other forums highlighting the "gems" in the industry, namely those vendors/businesses that do provide a high level of quality, competency, pride, and commitment to their customers.

[Cadence]

It is nice to see the consensus's of opinion seems not to be bashing the marine industry.

[Smokeys Kitchen]

Originally Posted by Zoidislander

In my area of the PNW I do not hear very many complaints regarding marine equipment suppliers, or boat repair yards. Anyone else care to comment?
Specifically Northwest Washington State. Anacortes, LaConnor, Bellingham.

We are Seattle residents and have owned a sailboat there for 7 years. We lived aboard in Shilshole Marina for 9 months before coming up the Inside Passage. We are staying in Petersburg, AK now.

Marinas:
Shilshole and Petersburg have both been great. Shilshole staff was very friendly, but could only give you "official" answers unless you got to talk to the person in charge. That solved problems immediately - and did not engender any bad feeling towards the front staff. Petersburg is a small town and you deal with the harbor master directly. Very friendly and accomodating.

Repair yards:

We've only used one. Our boat was on the hard in CSR in Seattle for 3 weeks after we bought it. They managed all the projects very well, stuck to their estimates, and always informed me of any issues that came up during any repair.

Service Techs.

We've really only used three. One I will not name. His work was excellent, but it was not timely. If you need head work done - he is great, but be prepared to wait. In all fairness he expressly told us up front that this was a part time gig - we just did not have a good agreement of what part time meant to both parties. Our fault as much as his. Very reasonable rates.

The second group was Miller & Miller Marine. Used them for electrical work / installation and would wholeheartedly recommend them. They were fast, efficient, and stuck to the estimate. They were "2 of 3"; fast and not cheap; but worth it in my opinion.

Auxiliary Engine & Generator Service - can't say enough about Mark and Howard for helping me understand and giving me hints to work on my Yanmar. Great group - highly recommend also.


Suppliers:

+2 on Fisheries. They have very knowledgeable folks there and I have even dealt with them remotely as we've come up to Alaska. Some of their prices are very competitive and others are not; not surprising for a good B&M store.

I have also had good luck with West Marine in Shilshole; having bought many small items from them as they were close. They were upfront enough several times to say "this one will work, but Fisheries carries a better one".


All in all - if you are careful, the PNW is a good place to have a boat. Good selection of vendors and suppliers with reasonable prices for both.

[Suijin]

In the service industry it's pretty much like any other service industry for homeowners where you have a lot of small outfits. Tree trimming, roofing, painting, chimney sweeping, etc. The quality of the work and the price are both directly related to the skill/oversight of management. If they know their work and know how to manage a business and schedule workflow, you get good work at a fair price. If not...the spectrum of bad work, expensive work and bad expensive work is wide.

I've had absolutely amazing contractors work on my boat, and a few that were nightmares. With the good ones I felt like I got what I paid for, sometimes more. With the bad ones I felt ripped off and suspect about the work, sometimes redoing it or having it redone.

Also, at some yards the quality of the work can rise and fall depending on personnel turnover or simply who works on your boat that day. At some yards you have unethical yard owners/managers who will sell whatever they can sell regardless of whether it's needed or not. The hull peeler for example has become the boatyard's equivalent of a an orthopedist's x-ray machine, basically printing money.

It worth pointing out that some yards have a captive workforce and other yards have individual, specialized (rigging, refrigeration, mechanical, etc.) companies co-located in their yard. I believe in general you're always better off going with the specialized outfits instead of yard workers.

When I was in Annapolis, it was amazing the spectrum of work quality from absolutely awful to stellar. There is so much work to be had in that town that anyone can hang out a shingle and survive. But reputation is everything and the really good people are known and do well.

I've also spent some longer periods at yards which have glowing reviews but noticed over time all sorts of poor work as well as unethical practices. The yard owner is cheerful and engaging, inspiring confidence and trust, but that's just a front.

Bottom line is you're best served by finding the specific skilled individual that you want to work on your boat, and you should oversee the work. Anything else and you're setting yourself up for a potentially bad experience, or even worse, suspect work that you don't know about.

[Cadence]

It was at one time a satisfied customer told 3 a dissatisfied customer told 8. I can't imagine what it may be today. The 3 probably remained constant, with the internet the dissatisfied probably increase by at least a factor of ten. Long story short, look for the 3. Unfortunately good work is often not heralded.

[peter57]

Originally Posted by Dave_S

After trying to get work done by others on my boat, I gave up about a year ago on all trades except those I can not do myself.

If I had my time again I'd set up in the marine service industry, it is begging for someone who will show up.......... That's all you need to do to be better than the rest. If you ran it professionally you would control the market.

I regret not finding this out about 10 years ago.

In saying that I get very good service on all counts from the chandleries I go to around Brisbane.

Just had a Great experience hauling out in Southern Moreton Bay in the Redlands.

No mark up on prices for Anti foul ect. and fully stocked.

Excellent help and advise from very a experienced manager and courteous staff.

All types of lifting out devices to suit your boat.

Could not be happier.

[JPA Cate]

pete57, what is the name of the place in "Redlands?" Is it the little yard up a mangrove creek?


Ann

[peter57]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

pete57, what is the name of the place in "Redlands?" Is it the little yard up a mangrove creek?


Ann

Hi Anne,

Its up a mangrove creek, but fairly large, and has had a management change 18 months or so ago. It has been dismal for years, after the change the word has got around so its is packed with boats again.

It was hard to find prices to beat theirs (paint, sanding, rag, tape, ect.) so it made it easy to just shop with the convenience and with the great help from the Manager with all things asked of him.

Cheers,
Peter.

[denverd0n]

Originally Posted by Cadence

Unfortunately good work is often not heralded.

Which is why we here -- and in general on forums like this one -- need to SPEAK UP, and name names, when we have a good experience, so that others might benefit from it.

[Zoidislander]

Originally Posted by JOHNMARDALL

Buying items of equipment is relatively straightforward but installation and other boat work is anything but straightforward, with confined spaces, concealed defects that only become visible as other items are removed, and the need for multiple skill sets to complete almost any installation or repair. I do all of my own work, but that's been a part of my job for most of life, I have a lot of tools and equipment and if I had to pay others to do what I do for myself, I could not afford to be a boater. This is an important issue to think about when buying an older boat that may seem to be a bargain - many people greatly underestimate what will need to be repaired or replaced, don't understand the complexity and difficulty of boat work, use buying and maintaining a family car as a touchstone for the cost of boat work and are horrified when the bill comes in. One suggestion: look at the staffing of the marina or boatyard where you are thinking of having work done. If it's a large yard with a project manager (good test - please show me a full written statement of the scope of the work and the schedule) well-equipped workshops and a lot of qualified employees or frequently used sub-contractors, a complex job will almost certainly be done on time and on budget (which must include a contingency for concealed conditions). If it's a marina with a three or four person crew where the main activity is hauling, launching and bottom painting, understand that anything else will be done as fill-in work, when time permits. That may work for what you need, and sometimes you can help yourself by assembling any special parts and pieces required for your job, but be realistic about what you need done and where best to get it done.

In more than forty years of boating on the East Coast of the USA, I've only encountered one dishonest boat yard (don't ask), but have also rarely had the thought: "Wow, that was less than I expected"

All the best
John Mardall
Vetus Maxwell

Excellent summation.

[ramblinrod]

I have the pleasure of being a boater for 20+ years, and a professional, full time, mobile marine service provider for the last 5. Here is my perspective.

In general, all one needs to understand, is the customer / marine service provider relationship must be balanced for it to work well.

How can you identify a service pro?

1. They will be happy to show you their professional certifications they carry with them at all times. You should ask to see these FOR THE PERSON PERFORMING THE WORK, OR SIGNING OFF ON IT. (Can't show me, can't set foot on my boat.)

(Note that a diesel mechanic certification or residential electrician ticket does not qualify one in any way shape or form to perform marine electrical work.)

2. They will be happy to show you their commercial liability insurance certificate. (Can't show me, can't set foot on my boat.)

3. They charge pro rate.

Typically, at $100/hr, after admin, overhead, unproductive time, and reasonable business profit, the worker may see $30/hr pay, government and benefit deductions, which ends up being about $20/hr take home.

If you seek a lower rate, all the other stuff still has to be paid.

At $90 / hr service rate, the worker will see about $15/hr gross. How qualified, good, and experienced do you think the person is who is willing to work for minimum wage?

If they have a backlog of customers willing to pay normal rate, why would they forsake those to work for you for less? If they don't have a backlog, your red flags should be flying up like crazy.

4. Don't expect them to know every possible thing about your boat, and all of its systems, or even the thing they are installing.

If you have owned your boat for 10 years, and scoured every square inch, you know that boat way better than a pro who has been on it for 15 minutes.

If you have owned and operated a chartplotter for 10 years, you likely know it far better than the pro who has operated that exact year, make, and model, for maybe an hour, and tried to recall this from all of the others they have worked on in that time.

So why hire a pro then? They have the relationship with the local distributor and the factory. They have the general knowledge, skills, and experience, to install and commission it, correctly and reliably.

Far fewer DIYers actually can, (compared to how many think they can), based on all the poorly executed and failed DIY electrical installations we fix.

Of course the pro, will perform a quick power up and operational test, and provide a quick tutorial of basic functions if owner is present.

The customer is responsible for reading the manual and learning how to use the features desired.

5. If you hire based on low price alone, expect that is exactly what you will receive.

If you purchase products based on lowest price alone, you are entitled to receive all of the on-board product customer service you are willing to provide yourself.

We provide on-board product and installation warranty for every product we sell and install.

We endeavour to ensure our retail product prices are market competitive. (It is impossible for any one retail seller, to be the lowest of every single internet seller worldwide for every product.)

For customer supplied (purchased elsewhere) product we install, we offer an onboard product warranty for 15% of normal product retail price.

A) If the customer refuses, and the product fails under warranty (no fault of ours), they deal with it, or we will at normal hourly rate.

B) If they accept, we deal with it, no charge.

6. If a pro makes a mistake, they will endeavour to fix it in an equitable fashion to preserve their reputation, if given the chance.

7. If you feel things are not going well, be understanding, express your grievance clearly and respectfully, and allow the contractor to address it and make it right, before threatening non-payment.

If you jump to the latter, the relationship is instantly and irreversibly damaged.

8. Don't ask for cash discount.

In Canada, if the contractor has revenue of more than $30K/yr, they are required by law to file income tax and charge HST.

If they agree to not charge tax, they either do not have enough business to bill $30K per year, or are willing to operate illegally. What level of integrity do you expect from a company or person willing to work illegally and risk being caught in an audit and fined or jailed?

9. Because you are hiring someone, does not give you any right to abuse them in any way. Expect to be treated with the same level of dignity and respect that you treat your marine service provider with.

Anyone who believes they are "better" than their marine service provider, is a fool. Either they are an incorrect and put down others to feel superior, or they have hired the wrong service provider.

No "pro" will accept abuse for pay, not even for an instant.

We are very careful to screen who we accept as a customer.

Those we don't accept as a customer (or in very rare cases, fire after the fact), end up hiring someone with lower customer expectations. I wonder how that works out?

10. In summary of all of the above, the customer / marine service provider relationship is based on a contract between equals.

One is willing to provide an appropriate amount of money in return for the other to provide a corresponding amount of education, skill, experience, and customer service.

Go into the relationship with this attitude, and you stand the greatest possibility of being happy with the outcome.

[Cadence]

Contract between equals sounds like a complex, or you're dealing with the wrong people.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by Cadence

Contract between equals sounds like a complex, or you're dealing with the wrong people.

Well, we are moderately profitable and have an extremely high customer satisfaction rate, so I guess what we’re doing is working pretty well.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Well, we are moderately profitable and have an extremely high customer satisfaction rate, so I guess what we’re doing is working pretty well.

Great! Turning out a good job and treating the customer with respect is the ticket. Word of mouth is the best advertisement.

[bobfnbw]

When my Endeavour 40 sunk at her slip, the marina did good to start the pump out process and call me, we got her out of the water quick. All good.
Then they would not let me aboard and the water sat inside for 2 weeks while they waited for the in water boat show to finish. Much damage occured due to that. Fail.
Then the only company at the marina who I contracted to work on the boat when the insurance sorted itself out started work before I approved it and more importantly the insurance approved it. Fail. They started the work and lied to me that the insurance signed off on it because I was about to have the boat trucked to a do it your self yard in Rockport, TX. The work got done, at a large expense being charged a daily charge while still paying for the slip there. The insurance company screwed me as well. Lesson learned.

Peter Kennedy yacht service is a great company.
So is Defender, and Jamestown. Never ordered from fisheries supply but I would trust them as well.
I've used 3 surveyors as well with great results with them. But its still buyer beware.