Is it right and fair to live aboard a vessel that cannot navigate?

[Secondshift]

In Fl a portion of our boat registrations is appropriated for grants to communities to remove derelict boats. The information is available on the FWC website. Your community leaders can apply. Private citizens however cannot.

Though we all agree that some boats should be removed it's difficult to draw a hard line somewhere.

The livaboard that beat me to the storm hole is back at anchor nearby now. His motor doesn't work. But he obviously has the means and knowledge to get around. Should he be excluded? It's his home.

I live ashore and store my boat at anchor. My engine is in good repair. Should I be excluded and or forced into a marina to leave space for more traveling cruisers though I pay local property taxes?

I once had a man arrested for trying to break into our cars at the house. The weather was cold and he had fallen into some water nearby. I actually felt sort of bad about it he was kind of drunk / drugged up, not all there.
While speaking with one of the officers. I said "Why would somebody want to live like that."
The officer responded " I'm glad to live in a country where we have the right to live as we choose."

I don't want to loose our freedom and liberty in the use of our waterways. They belong to us all. This thing has been slowly marching on. First the anchoring and mooring pilot program ( I went to several of the public meetings held locally) and now additional enforcement.
Starting recently with anchor lights locally and now the discussion of how we shall prove mobility. I think a state boat inspection may be on the way.

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by Secondshift

SNIP

I don't want to loose our freedom and liberty in the use of our waterways. They belong to us all. This thing has been slowly marching on. First the anchoring and mooring pilot program ( I went to several of the public meetings held locally) and now additional enforcement.
Starting recently with anchor lights locally and now the discussion of how we shall prove mobility. I think a state boat inspection may be on the way.

I started sailing in Florida in 1954 on my Dad's boat. It was common to leave Miami and sail South to Sands Key, anchor for the weekend, sail back and you could count on your hand all the boats you saw.

In 1967 we moved to Marathon. BKH was like the Wild West which resulted in the mooring field there, and the Wild West moving to West of the mooring field. Not to mention if you are not on a ball there by early November you will be on a waiting list for one. Plenty of other areas that have seen similar growth in the number of boats; and a lot of them are little more that floating apartments that bear little resemblance to what most folks would call 'a live aboard vessel'. Throw in environmental concerns (and yea I know about pollution from those who live on dirt) and a wide spread dislike (right or wrong you need to acknowledge it exists) and it is easy to see why Florida pols are doing what they are doing.

Since Florida has long since ended its inspection program for cars it seems unlikely to me that they would start one for boats. You do have to register boats longer than 16 feet in Florida and I see that as the most obvious tool to use.

[markpierce]

I pay property taxes on my boat as well as the rented local government berth.

[Sojourner]

Originally Posted by Secondshift

I live ashore and store my boat at anchor. My engine is in good repair. Should I be excluded and or forced into a marina to leave space for more traveling cruisers though I pay local property taxes?

This is one of those hard questions for me to get my head around. As a boater, much like biker, VW busser, and queer person, I can't help but put my niche community above others...for better or worse, it's a kind of family and we should look out for each other. But I don't know what to say. I pay my property taxes also, yet I cannot park my VW in front of my neighbors house indefinitely. It's a shared resource. Everyone pays taxes, everyone has a 'right' to use them. If I park for a few days, no worries. Treat it as an extension of my driveway, then no buono, and understandably. And the shabbier the car looks, the sooner I'd have to move. Also understandably.

How is a public anchorage different, except that we are boaters not drivers in this argument?

[Secondshift]

The inspection of which i speak will be of vessels anchored and or moored not all vessels. I'll try to find the email sent by FWC. I'm on their list of interested parties for boating regulations.

People tend to suggest impoundment but it would be a nightmare. Imagine having to take charge of the whole rag tag fleet. Where would they put them. The best thay can do is file for a grant with the state but the rules aren't yet totally clear how to define a derelict.

We were keeping a Catalina 22 on a mooring when the pilot program started. I was highly interested in how it would play out as i intended to do the same with something a bit bigger. Little has actually changed.

[Secondshift]

I pay my property taxes also, yet I cannot park my VW in front of my neighbors house indefinitely. It's a shared resource. Everyone pays taxes, everyone has a 'right' to use them. If I park for a few days, no worries. Treat it as an extension of my driveway, then no buono, and understandably. And the shabbier the car looks, the sooner I'd have to move. Also understandably.

How is a public anchorage different, except that we are boaters not drivers in this argument?[/QUOTE]

Your analogy would only rightly apply to suburbia. Where street parking is not allowed and people park on their lawn. In many places without driveways street parking is perfectly permissable. Sometimes by permit. The duration of which might only be limited by moving for a street sweeper. First come first serve. Regardless of it's appearance.

So sad the confines of the suburban covenance has become the norm. Line up.

I laugh when they post that I "can't afford my
boat " because I don't slip it. Then complain transient slips and marinas are too expensive.

[CatNewBee]

In our country we pay taxes for vehicles based on engine size and pollution, that includes using the unrestricted public spaces for parking as long as the car is registered, cars have to pass a test at least every 2 years to remain registered, otherwise you have to remove them from public space, either park them on private property or dispose them and deregister them.

[Secondshift]

Couldn't find the old email but did find a copy of the minutes from the July 2019 Commission Meeting.

Draft Rule – Effective Means of Propulsion for Safe Navigation, 68D – 15.002. In accordance with the statutory direction in 327.4107(2)(e), Florida Statutes, the proposed draft rule will establish evaluation methods for determining whether vessels which are greater than 16 feet in length have an effective means of propulsion for safe navigation. This rule provides law enforcement officers with a standardized evaluation utilizing specified time, distance and maneuverability components. The rule provides restrictions on conducting evaluations during adverse weather conditions and when a vessel owner has proof of ordering parts necessary to effect repairs. Staff plan to advertise the proposed rule and a final public hearing is planned for October 2019.

The PDF is available online. https://myfwc.com/about/commission/c...ngs/july-2019/
listed as "rule language " under section 5. B

The rule does allow for a Sailboat to prove by sailing and said something about human power. I twice passed a man sculling over the stern in a 30' J boat.

So in Florida in the near future whether right or fair it may not be legal.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Secondshift

These issues are always so hotly debated.
There seems to be no solidarity.

All groups seemingly wanting what's best for themselves.

When you speak of solidarity movements, it's typically from the perspective of the larger society. Not just liveaboards, not just sailors, not just people who own boats...but the whole of society.

The general society generally doesn't care for those who abuse the system.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Secondshift

People tend to suggest impoundment but it would be a nightmare. Imagine having to take charge of the whole rag tag fleet. Where would they put them. The best thay can do is file for a grant with the state but the rules aren't yet totally clear how to define a derelict.

It would only be difficult during the transition. You have a niche community that has learned literally over decades they can milk the system and there are no consequences.

Once they learn that abuse won't be tolerated, the problem will mostly solve itself. It's just not worth getting hold of a derelict vessel, get it towed somewhere and two weeks later, you have to repeat the process.

[oldcal46skipper]

After Hurricane Ivan, September 2004, there were so many derelict, abandoned, unkempt vessels in our turning basin I could barely weave my way through in my 22'Panga, much less my Cal46. I and neighbors contacted our Escambia County Sheriff who had his Marine Division, post notices on these boats, leave them the required 90 days, then if no response the boats were towed to the shipyard, cut up and hauled to the land fill (dump). Be responsible!

[ezgoing]

Originally Posted by osprey877

I think it depends on the location. If marina space is at a premium, then the first priority of the marina should be to provide moorage for navigable boats that will use the marina facilities for their intended purpose: a land base for sail and power boats that are owned and used by mariners. If space remains after local mariners needs are satisfied, then I suppose there is no problem renting excess space for what amounts to low rent housing. I would hate to see the day when boaters are unable to moor their boat in a marina because it is filled with immobile liveaboards who are only there because the moorage is cheaper than a one bedroom apartment. The liveaboards have the option of shore accommodation, whereas the boat owner usually has no choice but to either find space in a marina or get rid of the boat. ( Note that the OP and I are talking about non operational boats, not cruisers living on their properly maintained and operational boat).

What is the difference? If you chose to live in your boat full time you are taking up a space that could be used by somebody who only uses their boat on weekends.

You also have the option of shore accommodation, no one has forced you to live full time on your boat. The ownership of a boat is a privilege, not a right. Anyone willing to pay the costs of ownership has that privilege.

Three of the boats on the dock where I keep my boats are very expensive and less than five years old. Their owners are now complaining to the marina about all the "old" boats that are on "their" dock. So is that going to be the next criteria? If your boat is older than five years you should not be allowed to lease space at a marina?

The marina where I keep my boats now has a lease requirement that you can not live full time in your boats. So you would not qualify to lease space there if you lived full time in your boat, regardless of how mobile it was.

I don't know which marina you are using but my slips would not qualify as low rent housing. I wish they did.

I own three boats, one that I live in during the winter, one that I cruise in and one that I fish from during the winter. So I am really hogging facilities from those who wish to come and go at their convenience.


Be careful what you wish for because it can come back to haunt you.

[Leviathan33]

As long as the 'vessel' floats, is in decent repair, and they pay the fees, I'm good with it!

[ctskip]

If one cares to live on a log or on top of a piling. Who are we to dictate ones standard of living? As long as environmental laws are not being broken all’s fair. Just because your neighbor across the street from ones home doesn’t meet your standards there’s nothing that can be done as long as no laws are broken.

[dwedeking2]

Originally Posted by ezgoing

What is the difference? If you chose to live in your boat full time you are taking up a space that could be used by somebody who only uses their boat on weekends.

You also have the option of shore accommodation, no one has forced you to live full time on your boat. The ownership of a boat is a privilege, not a right. Anyone willing to pay the costs of ownership has that privilege.

Three of the boats on the dock where I keep my boats are very expensive and less than five years old. Their owners are now complaining to the marina about all the "old" boats that are on "their" dock. So is that going to be the next criteria? If your boat is older than five years you should not be allowed to lease space at a marina?

The marina where I keep my boats now has a lease requirement that you can not live full time in your boats. So you would not qualify to lease space there if you lived full time in your boat, regardless of how mobile it was.

I don't know which marina you are using but my slips would not qualify as low rent housing. I wish they did. [emoji2]

I own three boats, one that I live in during the winter, one that I cruise in and one that I fish from during the winter. So I am really hogging facilities from those who wish to come and go at their convenience.


Be careful what you wish for because it can come back to haunt you.

Except where I am, there is no boat looking to move in when I leave. I'm not taking up anyone's resource. Like tomfl said capacity to service demand plays a big part in how restrictive regulations need to be.