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Old 03-12-2018, 19:17   #1
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3 options small Cat

Gemini 105
Prout snowgoose elite 37
Tomcat 9.5

New to sailing.
Dreaming of buying my first and last Catamaran

Would love to be able cross oceans few years from now.


From these 3?

Which one would you sugest and why?

Budget $80,000 tops
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Old 03-12-2018, 19:52   #2
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Re: 3 options small Cat

I have a Gemini 2003 105MC, It has been sailed all over the Pacific, Coral Sea and down the Tasman Sea,
Very good seaworthy boat, Rides flat and level in all conditions,
Buy one thats later than 2002 as Tony Smith the Builder took out all the Cherry wood panelling to make it lighter after delivering one across the Northern Atlantic to England,
Swing mooring in Fiji,
It sat here for a week when I broke my Tailshaft for the motor drive leg, Bundaberg, Qld,
Sitting on the beach at Maroochy. Qld,
I intend to sail this one around Australia, It has a 2 foot draught,
Averages about 7 knots,
14 feet wide, So a normal mooring in a Marina is possible,
The Catamaran company have a few listed for sale around the 80 to 90 Thousand mark,
Buy one with all the bells and whistles already on them, Extra's are very expensive to add on later,

No idea on the other two,

Cheers, Brian,
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Old 03-12-2018, 20:03   #3
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Re: 3 options small Cat

Add PDQ 32. You might find one for that. Very strong, very fast for the size range.


There's a lot of PDQ stuff on my blog, and a link to the PDQ owner's forum.
http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/
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Old 03-12-2018, 21:31   #4
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Re: 3 options small Cat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr B View Post
I have a Gemini 2003 105MC, It has been sailed all over the Pacific, Coral Sea and down the Tasman Sea,
Very good seaworthy boat, Rides flat and level in all conditions,
Buy one thats later than 2002 as Tony Smith the Builder took out all the Cherry wood panelling to make it lighter after delivering one across the Northern Atlantic to England,
Swing mooring in Fiji,
It sat here for a week when I broke my Tailshaft for the motor drive leg, Bundaberg, Qld,
Sitting on the beach at Maroochy. Qld,
I intend to sail this one around Australia, It has a 2 foot draught,
Averages about 7 knots,
14 feet wide, So a normal mooring in a Marina is possible,
The Catamaran company have a few listed for sale around the 80 to 90 Thousand mark,
Buy one with all the bells and whistles already on them, Extra's are very expensive to add on later,

No idea on the other two,

Cheers, Brian,

Thanks Brian,
Glad to know the Gemini is such a good catamaran, so far is the one I like the most!
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Old 03-12-2018, 21:32   #5
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Re: 3 options small Cat

Thank you!
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Old 04-12-2018, 09:48   #6
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Re: 3 options small Cat

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Originally Posted by Espiros View Post
Thank you!
I sailed on the Gemini , the Tomcat , and the PDQ32 before choosing to go with the PDQ. The quality of the PDQ32 is excellent and since they are no longer made it is harder to find a lower priced boat but you should consider this option.
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Old 04-12-2018, 23:32   #7
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Re: 3 options small Cat

I looked at the Gemini and PDQ. Ruled them both out on design issues. Gems have almost no deck space to go forward on. Walk on one and you'll understand. The batteries are located in a very awkward location requiring AGM's as servicing them is a nightmare at best. These issues were brought to my attention when I spoke with an owner. I looked at a PDQ 36 and while I ruled it out as a cruising boat I don't remember why. Most likely interior layout for cruising.

I found others in this size range and the best one IMHO is the Island Yachts Packet Cat 35.Tons of deck space, easy and safe to move around, no sexy rounded lines like a Leopard which while look cool offer a serious issue when et at sea for your foot to slip off. Packet Cats were built between 93-94. IPY tough and well built. Did I mention near standing headroom in both engine rooms? I'm 6'1. A well maintained Packet Cat will go about 110K. I bought mine for just under 1/2 that and have been replacing, repairing for quite a while now. I leave the Pacific Northwest next year to circumnavigate. Already been in 4o knot sustained winds and 5 meter seas with gusts to 45 as well as 2 other swells coming in from 2 other directions. Boat handled it quite well. The front is a solid bridge deck which usually means when you slam into a wave it shakes the entire boat. IPY took care of this by adding a Delta Pod to the front 1/3 of the boat which is a 3rd hull that splits the wave and gives a much quieter ride and more comfort. It's also a huge storage area.
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Old 04-12-2018, 23:48   #8
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Re: 3 options small Cat

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Originally Posted by Cpt Mark View Post
I looked at the Gemini and PDQ. Ruled them both out on design issues. Gems have almost no deck space to go forward on. Walk on one and you'll understand. The batteries are located in a very awkward location requiring AGM's as servicing them is a nightmare at best. These issues were brought to my attention when I spoke with an owner. I looked at a PDQ 36 and while I ruled it out as a cruising boat I don't remember why. Most likely interior layout for cruising.

I found others in this size range and the best one IMHO is the Island Yachts Packet Cat 35.Tons of deck space, easy and safe to move around, no sexy rounded lines like a Leopard which while look cool offer a serious issue when et at sea for your foot to slip off. Packet Cats were built between 93-94. IPY tough and well built. Did I mention near standing headroom in both engine rooms? I'm 6'1. A well maintained Packet Cat will go about 110K. I bought mine for just under 1/2 that and have been replacing, repairing for quite a while now. I leave the Pacific Northwest next year to circumnavigate. Already been in 4o knot sustained winds and 5 meter seas with gusts to 45 as well as 2 other swells coming in from 2 other directions. Boat handled it quite well. The front is a solid bridge deck which usually means when you slam into a wave it shakes the entire boat. IPY took care of this by adding a Delta Pod to the front 1/3 of the boat which is a 3rd hull that splits the wave and gives a much quieter ride and more comfort. It's also a huge storage area.
Easy to go forward on the Gemini...either along the side or over the top of the cabin (plenty of hand holds along the way)...never was an issue.

I'm confused why you found lifting the lid on the battery box next to the main entrance so difficult? If it's more than a quick check, it's easy to sit on the steps to work in the battery box at a convenient level.

To the OP do a search on Packet Cats...I will let that speak for their qualities. Not a fan.

You can also add Catalac to the list.

We've owned a Gemini 3400 and a Catalac 10m and been on all the boats listed so far. When we get our next boat 90% chance it will be another Gemini.

PS: Not a fan of the stand up engine room in the Catalac 10m (packet cat will be similar)...very hard to get in and out if you aren't agile. Much prefer an outboard setup for this size range.
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Old 05-12-2018, 01:50   #9
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Re: 3 options small Cat

Out of the 3, I would choose the Prout. Strongly built, long heritage of ocean cruising and you will find them all round the world which is proof of their seaworthyness. This is important IF you want to cross oceans. Not so if you are coastal cruising. The other two were not built/designed to cross oceans.
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Old 05-12-2018, 09:57   #10
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Re: 3 options small Cat

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
Easy to go forward on the Gemini...either along the side or over the top of the cabin (plenty of hand holds along the way)...never was an issue.

Going forward on the sides on the Gem's I have looked at and walked on, you have what, maybe 8" or so? In a sea state that isn't safe IMHO. Same for going over the top. The batteries were located in a compartment on the bottom of the port side's companionway. The 4 batteries were wired together and stuffed in the compartment one after another which meant that when you needed to check the water you had to disconnect the 1st one and pull them all out on your hands and knees. Those owners had bought the boat new and had burned up several sets of batteries because it was so difficult and a pain in the ass hence, AGM's which are. more expensive.

I'm confused why you found lifting the lid on the battery box next to the main entrance so difficult? If it's more than a quick check, it's easy to sit on the steps to work in the battery box at a convenient level.

The batteries were located in a compartment on the bottom of the port side's companionway. The 4 batteries were wired together and stuffed in the compartment one after another which meant that when you needed to check the water you had to disconnect the 1st one and pull them all out on your hands and knees. Those owners had bought the boat new and had burned up several sets of batteries because it was so difficult and a pain in the ass hence, AGM's which are. more expensive. Maybe on your model they, or someone, fixed that design flaw.

To the OP do a search on Packet Cats...I will let that speak for their qualities. Not a fan.

Why not?

You can also add Catalac to the list.

We've owned a Gemini 3400 and a Catalac 10m and been on all the boats listed so far. When we get our next boat 90% chance it will be another Gemini.

PS: Not a fan of the stand up engine room in the Catalac 10m (packet cat will be similar)...very hard to get in and out if you aren't agile. Much prefer an outboard setup for this size range.
On the Packet Cat you go through a very large door in the shower to get into the engine room. Additionally, if you want lots more air and sunlight, removing the contents of the lazarette the bottom can be raised.

I also saw a Solei 36 that looked really interesting in photos and speaking with an owner. I liked it when I 1st saw it but didn't have time to look at the engine room access so I went back. That time I ruled the boat out in 30 seconds. Engine was crammed in a well all the way in the back of the bunk (move the bedding, mattress to gain access) and since it was where your feet go, they conveniently had some deck feature above that lowered that part of the cabin top to about 18". Imagine even at the dock to check the oil you have to remove everything, crawl back there in an area barely big enough to get into and check the oil let alone service the engines.

As a professional Captain I have had tour Catamarans with both diesel and a single engine outboard. Outboard is cheap and works surprisingly well for maneuvering . If it breaks, easy to remove and take to a shop. If it's dead, easy to replace. Solid advantages. They also run on gas which is highly flammable, explosive and not as fuel efficient. Diesels are super reliable, last forever and are better at fuel efficiency. More costly to have a mechanic come and repair and weigh a LOT more plus they add a prop shaft and shaft log to the mix as well as 2 large holes below the waterline. Dripless shaft seals take care of the annoying water in the bilge.

I currently carry 55 gallons of diesel. 140 gallons of water. I will remove 1 water tank and have 2 tanks made up for that space giving me 105 gallons of diesel and 90 gallons of water. The 20 gallon water tank is where the water maker product water will 1st go before being transferred to the main water tank. I can make water, I can't make diesel.

In the end though, you need to not go by people's opinions as much as go and visit the boats you're considering. Ho will you be using it? A daysailer is much different than a coastal cruiser which is far different than an ocean going cruiser. And what is important to you? I was helping evaluate different cats for a friend (what I use to do for clients ) and I really liked the Prout we saw. He did too except that he couldn't sit up in bed because of the low cabin top. Ok, not my requirement but it was his. What else is important to you? My 1st requirement is that I have standing headroom (no crouching) inside the boat everywhere. Is galley up or down important to you and why? Does it have enough storage space for your intended use? So many questions. Also don't forget that when buying a used. older boat the electronics and other safety equipment may be out of date, unserviceable etc. That can run into a fair bit of money.
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Old 05-12-2018, 10:21   #11
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Re: 3 options small Cat

If you have any thoughts of crossing oceans, the Prout is the best match.
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Old 05-12-2018, 10:46   #12
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Re: 3 options small Cat

The Prout is probably the most solidly built of all of those (read slow and heavy). As others have said, they are all around the world. Safe and stable boats if a bit slow. They have a decent amount of space, and good room for solar too. Perhaps not as modern looking as the Gemini though.

The Diesel engine drive leg combination on the Prouts works well, but you'd save yourself 150kg by going with an outboard.
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Old 05-12-2018, 12:25   #13
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Re: 3 options small Cat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpt Mark View Post
I looked at the Gemini and PDQ. Ruled them both out on design issues. Gems have almost no deck space to go forward on. Walk on one and you'll understand. The batteries are located in a very awkward location requiring AGM's as servicing them is a nightmare at best. These issues were brought to my attention when I spoke with an owner. I looked at a PDQ 36 and while I ruled it out as a cruising boat I don't remember why. Most likely interior layout for cruising.

I found others in this size range and the best one IMHO is the Island Yachts Packet Cat 35.Tons of deck space, easy and safe to move around, no sexy rounded lines like a Leopard which while look cool offer a serious issue when et at sea for your foot to slip off. Packet Cats were built between 93-94. IPY tough and well built. Did I mention near standing headroom in both engine rooms? I'm 6'1. A well maintained Packet Cat will go about 110K. I bought mine for just under 1/2 that and have been replacing, repairing for quite a while now. I leave the Pacific Northwest next year to circumnavigate. Already been in 4o knot sustained winds and 5 meter seas with gusts to 45 as well as 2 other swells coming in from 2 other directions. Boat handled it quite well. The front is a solid bridge deck which usually means when you slam into a wave it shakes the entire boat. IPY took care of this by adding a Delta Pod to the front 1/3 of the boat which is a 3rd hull that splits the wave and gives a much quieter ride and more comfort. It's also a huge storage area.

They look different, I like the idea of the 3rd hull been a huge storage area.
I would like to get some scuba diving equipment and that would be a good place to keep it at.

I guess I will have to add them to the list of candidates but, the problem will be to find one, they do no seem to be many of them around....
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Old 05-12-2018, 12:30   #14
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Re: 3 options small Cat

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
Easy to go forward on the Gemini...either along the side or over the top of the cabin (plenty of hand holds along the way)...never was an issue.

I'm confused why you found lifting the lid on the battery box next to the main entrance so difficult? If it's more than a quick check, it's easy to sit on the steps to work in the battery box at a convenient level.

To the OP do a search on Packet Cats...I will let that speak for their qualities. Not a fan.

You can also add Catalac to the list.

We've owned a Gemini 3400 and a Catalac 10m and been on all the boats listed so far. When we get our next boat 90% chance it will be another Gemini.

PS: Not a fan of the stand up engine room in the Catalac 10m (packet cat will be similar)...very hard to get in and out if you aren't agile. Much prefer an outboard setup for this size range.

I like the Catalac, 10M or better yet the 12M......Actually they was my first choice but, the ones I can afford are way to old and very hard to impossible find
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Old 05-12-2018, 12:41   #15
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Re: 3 options small Cat

In the end though, you need to not go by people's opinions as much as go and visit the boats you're considering. Ho will you be using it? A daysailer is much different than a coastal cruiser which is far different than an ocean going cruiser. And what is important to you? I was helping evaluate different cats for a friend (what I use to do for clients ) and I really liked the Prout we saw. He did too except that he couldn't sit up in bed because of the low cabin top. Ok, not my requirement but it was his. What else is important to you? My 1st requirement is that I have standing headroom (no crouching) inside the boat everywhere. Is galley up or down important to you and why? Does it have enough storage space for your intended use? So many questions. Also don't forget that when buying a used. older boat the electronics and other safety equipment may be out of date, unserviceable etc. That can run into a fair bit of money.[/QUOTE]



--------------------------------------------------------------------------

My intention will be coastal cruiser and down the road (once I feel comfortable and well acquaintance to the boat) be able to cross oceans.
Headroom is important to me, I'm 6', so I think anyone will serve as long as they are 6'1".
I'm towards getting one with outboard engines.....I'm not the best mechanic and having 2 off them give me confidence that I will be able to keep moving if one engine breaks and I'm stock with no air whatsoever..

Last, I'm scare of getting something way to old and end up having to pay a mountain of money to make it work.

These are the main reasons why a Gemini is one of my top choices, They are cheaper and more modern than others, I love the idea of Prout and like the layout but, they seem to be older, same as catalac
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