Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 13-12-2010, 22:53   #31
Registered User
 
SvenG's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Mexico heading South
Boat: Ericson 39B - Senta II
Posts: 1,169
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel heart View Post
If you're the stand on vessel, you are required to stand on (along with all other signaling and communication requirements).
Exactly. You are causing problems if you don't stand on, unless the ship has asked you to do something differently.

The same goes for pleasure craft but there it is liability rather than loss of your life that is more likely hanging in the balance.



-Sven
__________________

__________________
Senta II - http://www.Grenander.com/Senta_II/Blog/Blog.html
1977 Ericson 39B -- Hull # 216
SvenG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-12-2010, 00:12   #32
Registered User
 
markpierce's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Central California
Boat: M/V Carquinez Coot
Posts: 3,416
Quote:
Originally Posted by bewitched View Post
My take on the whole avoiding big ships thing is that if I've got myself into the position where I'm the stand on vessel and I'm relying on the other (very large) vessel to take action to avoid that collision, then I've not been paying very much attention.
I agree. Make course adjustment early so there is no stand-on-vessel issue. If in congested waters, one strategy is to keep to shallower waters where ships don't dare to go, and another is to keep out of shipping channels as much as possible.

The ships that scare me most often are those coming from astern.
__________________

__________________
markpierce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-12-2010, 00:40   #33
Moderator
 
Boracay's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Pelican Bay, Great Sandy National Park
Boat: Steel Roberts Offshore 44
Posts: 5,175
Images: 18
Sokid Buffer...

On Sydney Harbour, with large freighters coming in, ferries with absolute right of way, racing yachts with same and every boat under power keeping left sometimes I chicken out and find a headland or island to hide behind for a while.

Then I find the commercial cruise boats chasing me as they check out the megamansions...
__________________
Rust never sleeps
Boracay Blog.
Boracay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-12-2010, 01:29   #34
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Seattle
Boat: Work: Ships/Tugs Play: Grand Banks 36
Posts: 76
Ask any (most) ship captain, pilot, ferry captain, tug captain etc, what is the big difference between traffic encounters with commercial vessels with recreational vessels and they will tell you 95% of the time: predictability.

Commercial traffic is easy to deal with - it's predictable. The problem is with the recreational, usually smaller, vessels without captains who REALLY understand the rules. It's the unpredictability (like not standing-on when you should be) that causes uncertainty and possible confusion on the bridge of the larger vessel.

In short, follow the rules - and that includes standing-on when you're supposed to, showing proper lighting and maintaining a proper watch.
__________________
Watermann is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 14-12-2010, 01:50   #35
Nearly an old salt
 
goboatingnow's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 13,649
Images: 3
People talking about standing on ate missing the point. First large commercial vessels nearly always communicate their passing intentions by VHF,leisure boats don't. To blithely stand on while getting closer and closer is the height of folly.

People talking about predicability miss the point you may not have been seen. In the first place. IMHO unless you have verbal agreement I would never get into a close quarters situation ( except in fairways)

As I said manoeuvre when the risk doesn't exist and don't put yourself anywhere near these ships if at all possible.

Dave
__________________
Check out my new blog on smart boat technology, networking and gadgets for the connected sailor! - http://smartboats.tumblr.com
goboatingnow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-12-2010, 06:31   #36
Eternal Member
 
imagine2frolic's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Las Brisas Panama AGAIN!
Boat: Simpson, Catamaran, 46ft. IMAGINE
Posts: 4,508
Images: 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chief Engineer View Post
"Shining our Million Candlepower light at the bridge" (?) NAGI

How aboot illuminating your sail?
Tried that & no reaction. He was coming onto my stern, so I am imagining no one is on the bridge for at least 10 minutes. I was tired of being patient. i2f
__________________
SAILING is not always a slick magazine cover!
BORROWED..No single one of is as smart as all of us!
http://sailingwithcancer.blogspot.com/
imagine2frolic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-12-2010, 06:34   #37
Eternal Member
 
imagine2frolic's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Las Brisas Panama AGAIN!
Boat: Simpson, Catamaran, 46ft. IMAGINE
Posts: 4,508
Images: 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watermann View Post
Ask any (most) ship captain, pilot, ferry captain, tug captain etc, what is the big difference between traffic encounters with commercial vessels with recreational vessels and they will tell you 95% of the time: predictability.

Commercial traffic is easy to deal with - it's predictable. The problem is with the recreational, usually smaller, vessels without captains who REALLY understand the rules. It's the unpredictability (like not standing-on when you should be) that causes uncertainty and possible confusion on the bridge of the larger vessel.

In short, follow the rules - and that includes standing-on when you're supposed to, showing proper lighting and maintaining a proper watch.
There you go proper watch, and if they have none?........i2f
__________________
SAILING is not always a slick magazine cover!
BORROWED..No single one of is as smart as all of us!
http://sailingwithcancer.blogspot.com/
imagine2frolic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-12-2010, 06:53   #38
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 20,226
Images: 2
pirate

Its all very well chanting Stand On.. Stand On... like religious fanatic's reading their texts but real life situations often call for the opposite..
Being a 'Small Boat' sailor (I mean under 30'... anything over is big) there have been no end of occasions when crossing the 'lanes' in the English Channel, rounding Ushant and during Biscay crossings big ships just don't see me...
I have had them pass 500metres from me and not see me... confirmed by VHF when I called.. especially at night in spite of lights..
Lets face it... a small vessel in a 6metre... or even a 4metre swell is not going to make much impression in the 'Clutter'... so all you guys out there holding to the Stand On rule... don't go offshore in small boats without your 'Brown Trousers' and a powerful engine...
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-12-2010, 07:03   #39
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,764
I can share my recent experience with this problem. I crossed the English Channel six times this year, twice at night.

The English Channel is the busiest shipping lane in the world, and crossing it in a sailboat can make you feel like a squirrel running across a busy highway. Avoiding ships is the main problem.

Some things I learned this year, for whatever they may be worth to anyone:

1. Make sure you always carry your hand-bearing compass whenever you are going to be near any shipping lanes. Without a hand-bearing compass (or well functioning radar with EBL) you cannot tell whether or not you are on a dangerous converging course until you are quite close, which tremendously narrows your options.

2. Some ships are very aware of who is around them and pay attention to being the give-way vessel, despite the "rule of tonnage". Other ships don't appear to have anyone in the wheelhouse at all and just barrel along. In the middle are ships who watch you to see if you are going to alter course before they start making their own course alterations. We had a nasty situation at night once where we had to maneuver to avoid one ship and then found ourselves right on a collision course with another one, practically unlit and close by. We waited a minute to see if it would alter course (we were under sail and not in the Traffic Separation Scheme area so we were the stand-on vessel according to COLREGS), understood they would happily run us down, and with very little time to spare crash-tacked onto a reciprocal course to let them pass by. This was at night. Scary!

3. As implied by the above -- you can be in a close quarters situation with more than one ship at a time, so don't lose track of other ships around by being distracted by the closest and most dangerous one. You could end up out of the frying pan and into the fire!

4. Radar doesn't work for s*it when you are close hauled and heeling over.

5. Radar with MARPA is extremely useful, theoretically, if it is working right. But ours never seems to be 100% effective. The calculations which MARPA does are thrown off by any errors in heading data, and recreational boat nav systems don't usually have heading data worth a c*ap.

6. "Stay out of the way" is of course the first line of defense and the best way to avoid a ship. In order to do so, however, you need to identify a dangerous converging course early enough to be able to initiate your own course correction before the ship starts to change his own course (assuming he is one of those aware ships). So you've really got to be keeping a sharp watch with a hand bearing compass in order to identify a situation from at least a couple miles off and to be able to calculate in time the right course alteration. If you are the stand-on vessel but you want to stay out of the way yourself -- entirely appropriate when you are a small recreational vessel encountering a big commercial vessel -- you need to make your course alteration early enough to not confuse the guy on the big commercial vessel. Like the guy above said -- predictability is important.

7. Staying out of the way becomes quite a bit harder when you are close-hauled and slogging it out upwind. On that point of sail we tended to wait longer in the hope that ships would alter course, and stopped being quite so shy about it. Many, but by no means all ships, did alter course to let us pass by when we really, really didn't want to alter course and lose ground to windward.

8. It seems to be actually easier at night than in the day time. Ships' nav lights make it easy to see the aspect even from far off. It was not particularly scary crossing shipping lanes at night, contrary to what we expected.

9. We were never able to communicate with anyone over VHF and never heard any communications over VHF in the shipping lanes about passing or course alterations. By the time we could see a name in order to be able to hail, the hard part was always over already. This is of course one of the great things about AIS, which we do not yet have.
__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-12-2010, 07:09   #40
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 19,764
Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
People talking about standing on ate missing the point. First large commercial vessels nearly always communicate their passing intentions by VHF,leisure boats don't. To blithely stand on while getting closer and closer is the height of folly.

People talking about predicability miss the point you may not have been seen. In the first place. IMHO unless you have verbal agreement I would never get into a close quarters situation ( except in fairways)

As I said manoeuvre when the risk doesn't exist and don't put yourself anywhere near these ships if at all possible.

Dave
I beg to disagree.

Some sailors were killed in the English Channel a couple of years ago because although they were the stand on vessel, they altered their course over and over again while the vessel they were trying to avoid was altering his own course. They managed to steer themselves right into a fatal collision. If they had simply stood on like they were supposed to then the ship could have avoided them.

Of course you do your best to avoid being in a close quarters situation to begin with -- so that no one is standing on and no one is giving way. But it is not always possible.
__________________
Dockhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-12-2010, 07:23   #41
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: PORTUGAL
Posts: 20,226
Images: 2
pirate

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
I beg to disagree.

Some sailors were killed in the English Channel a couple of years ago because although they were the stand on vessel, they altered their course over and over again while the vessel they were trying to avoid was altering his own course. They managed to steer themselves right into a fatal collision. If they had simply stood on like they were supposed to then the ship could have avoided them.

Of course you do your best to avoid being in a close quarters situation to begin with -- so that no one is standing on and no one is giving way. But it is not always possible.
Then why did they not use their VHF... its the safety tool of choice... well it is for me if I'm approaching a collision situation of real risk...
A quick call can often resolve the problem... if there's someone on 'Radio Watch'.
The thing I've noticed amongst 'Liesure Boaters' is the growing habit of relying on moblie phones etc... not a lot of use when you want to hail a ship... also many switch off after calling the CG to log their departure and ETA's... "cant stand the babble" being the main excuse... but then they can't tell if they're being hailed...
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-12-2010, 07:39   #42
Registered User
 
SvenG's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Mexico heading South
Boat: Ericson 39B - Senta II
Posts: 1,169
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockhead View Post
Of course you do your best to avoid being in a close quarters situation to begin with -- so that no one is standing on and no one is giving way. But it is not always possible.
Yes, that's the obvious step one, but failing that you follow the rules of the road.



-Sven
__________________
Senta II - http://www.Grenander.com/Senta_II/Blog/Blog.html
1977 Ericson 39B -- Hull # 216
SvenG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-12-2010, 08:10   #43
Senior Cruiser
 
rebel heart's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 6,190
Images: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I disagree with the view that stand on vessels stand on. Firstly one should never stand on into danger. Secondly colregs do not absolve the stand on vessel from taking other actions if deemed necessary. Thirdly the colregs apply where the risk of collision exist. I ensure that I manoeuvre to avoid the risk of collision occurs.

Also the colregs does not give anyone the right of way

Dave


It really, really, really does. It specifically states in painful detail who has the right of way in overtaking, crossing, head-on, and otherwise situations. I'm honestly shocked.

International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
__________________
rebel heart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-12-2010, 08:19   #44
Registered User
 
SvenG's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Mexico heading South
Boat: Ericson 39B - Senta II
Posts: 1,169
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebel heart View Post


It really, really, really does.
I think what Dave is referring to is that when a collision is imminent all parties are responsible for taking whatever action is needed to try to avoid it.

Until a collision is imminent you are responsible for standing on if you are the standon vessel, that isn't a right of way, it is a legal obligation.



-Sven
__________________
Senta II - http://www.Grenander.com/Senta_II/Blog/Blog.html
1977 Ericson 39B -- Hull # 216
SvenG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-12-2010, 08:23   #45
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Out there doin' it
Boat: 47' Olympic Adventure
Posts: 2,638
Quote:
Originally Posted by bewitched View Post
Only if you are motoring.
And if you're under sail, you're still the stand-on - which way do you think he's gonna turn?

If you turn towards him, you increase the closing speed and turn it into a head-on collision; plus he now won't know which way to bail out, if he even has the time to turn.
__________________

__________________
Lodesman is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
24vdc Help for HUGE Anchor Windlass cat man do Electrical: Batteries, Generators & Solar 52 01-01-2011 17:30
Huge Cat Bloodhound Multihull Sailboats 1 09-02-2010 14:14
Huge storm hit PNW-pict/video delmarrey Off Topic Forum 1 25-08-2008 20:15
Searching for informatin about big sail ships.Famous pirates ships. Santa Maria venelin General Sailing Forum 0 23-02-2008 03:20
is there a huge difference in price between... fujiwara takumi General Sailing Forum 10 26-08-2004 03:18



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:48.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.