What if Everyone Wore a Mask?

[mickt243]

a mask wont help a whole lot, to be properly protected, you need to dress like this,





or better yet, this





but beware, getting undressed requires proper decontamination or you still get infected...

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

NY Time today - more americans should wear masks.

Study of SARS experience washing hands more than 10 times daily was 55 percent effective in stopping virus transmission, while wearing a mask was actually more effective — at about 68 percent. Wearing gloves offered about the same amount of protection as frequent hand-washing, and combining all measures — hand-washing, masks, gloves and a protective gown — increased the intervention effectiveness to 91 percent.

The available studies are all a bit weak, basically because it is difficult to conduct properly designed studies during emergencies. But I really think it is indisputable that (a) there is a surprisingly high population of corona cases with no symptoms (like somewhere between 30-50% of those infected) and that (b) universal mask usage would probably reduce those people's transmission rate. How much protection various masks provide from getting the virus is not at all clear, but properly used (and proper use is not rocket science) they really simply have to provide some protection.

Your source is about masks helping to stop infected people from transmitting the disease to others, not about reducing their risk of catching the coronavirus. One of the chief values mentioned is reducing the stigma for infected people wearing masks.

While in the supermarket yesterday I saw a lady with her mask half off, typing on her mobile phone. Do you see the problem? She’s alternating touching her cart, groceries, phone, Credit card or cash, and mask. Is the mask increasing or decreasing her risk?

The official guidance may change at some point, but for now, healthcare workers are still battling shortages of masks.

So we’re still at the “social distancing is the best strategy” phase. Otherwise, I’d be all for everyone wearing surgical masks to protect everyone else.

[GordMay]

FWIW:
“How 3M Plans to Make More Than a Billion Masks By End of Year”
“... Coming out of the SARS epidemic of 2002-03, the company realized it wasn’t fully equipped to handle unexpected explosions of demand in the event of a crisis, or what it calls an “X factor.” It decided to build surge capacity into its respirator factories around the world.
Over the years, with X factors such as the Ebola panic and the H1N1 flu virus generating flash floods of demand, the company kept refining its emergency response. ...
... 3M can’t save the day on its own, but it’s promising a remarkably large contribution. The company has in two months doubled global production of N95 masks to about 100 million a month, and it’s planning to invest in new equipment to push annual mask production to 2 billion within 12 months ...”
More ➥ https://www.bloomberg.com/news/featu...=pocket-newtab

[Michael Cobbe]

The normal mask doesn't work the virus is tiny and will pass through it, hence the huge number of virus infections glonbally, also the virus will also pass through your eyes so they to be covered with goggles or a hat with hat with a curved piece of plasti that covers your face. N95 respirator masks, are designed to protect the wearer from small particles in the air, like viruses.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

Your source is about masks helping to stop infected people from transmitting the disease to others, not about reducing their risk of catching the coronavirus. One of the chief values mentioned is reducing the stigma for infected people wearing masks. Well, (a) No that is not what the study I linked was about. The study says in SARS (also a Coronavirus from bats) that masks were as useful as frequent hand washing at preventing catching virus (by health care workers in this study), and both together were obviously even better; and (b) yes, as NYT article pointed out this novel virus has a reasonably significant feature that like 30-50% of people are asymptomatic and potentially spreading the disease while not knowing they have it. If everyone was wearing masks (even DIY or surgical masks) that significant source of transmission would be reduced.

While in the supermarket yesterday I saw a lady with her mask half off, typing on her mobile phone. Do you see the problem? She’s alternating touching her cart, groceries, phone, Credit card or cash, and mask. Is the mask increasing or decreasing her risk?

yes, wearing masks improperly is a problem, just as washing hands improperly is a problem. We give people instructions now on how to wash hands. Wearing a mask properly is not rocket science - instructions are not hard to provide.

The official guidance may change at some point, but for now, healthcare workers are still battling shortages of masks.

Thinwater (I believe)was talking about surgical and DIY masks. The supply chain from China on surgical masks is just now starting to refill - you can in fact now order them (for like delivery in a week or 10 days). And any of us with a sewing machine can in fact make a mask which is quite close to surgical mask performance. Yes, these are not N95's (with some skill you could/can in fact DIY a N95 but they are difficult to breath thru) but they do in fact provide better than zero level of protection (thinwater posted study somewhere above) both for outward and inward transmission.

So we’re still at the “social distancing is the best strategy” phase. Otherwise, I’d be all for everyone wearing surgical masks to protect everyone else.

So, in general, we are in mostly agreement - I personally would suggest and practice 'social isolation as much as possible, distancing when that is not possible, DIY or surgical mask whenever you go out of your home.'

...........

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by mickt243

a mask wont help a whole lot, to be properly protected, you need to dress like this,

......

Regular people do NOT need to dress like that to significantly reduce their risk.

If you are operating on someone with the virus in a medical procedure that causes significant direct aerosols well ok . . . . . . but for those of us going to the grocery store no. You can significantly reduce and manage your risk well short of that.

[mickt243]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

Regular people do NOT need to dress like that to significantly reduce their risk.

If you are operating on someone with the virus in a medical procedure that causes significant direct aerosols well ok . . . . . . but for those of us going to the grocery store no. You can significantly reduce and manage your risk well short of that.

Yeah, not quite what I meant, and my bad for not being clearer....

I’m not saying that the average Joe should MOPP up for a trip to the shops, I’m saying that to have a significant improvement over social distancing and washing regularly whilst keeping the unwell under strict quarantine then MOPP/TEC suits is what it would take, not a surgical or industrial mask as the infection sources are far more widespread than *just* airborne particles/droplets..... there is a reason that armies dealing with bio agents don’t f*** around with doctors masks and alcohol gel.

What the general population needs to do is limit the spread by keeping away from possible infection sources as much as reasonably possible. PPE is a last resort, not a run of the mill solution

[Simi 60]

I'll just leave this here

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

I'll just leave this here

Sponsored by: Oversimplistic School of Statistics

“Where we ignore all the other differences, and make the conclusions we want. We can thereby make bold scientific conclusions with a simple stroke of a pen.”

Degrees there will get you a guaranteed job at CNN.

Causal? Correlated? Coincidence? Who cares?

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

Sponsored by: Oversimplistic School of Statistics

“Where we ignore all the other differences, and make the conclusions we want. We can thereby make bold scientific conclusions with a simple stroke of a pen.”

Degrees there will get you a guaranteed job at CNN.

Causal? Correlated? Coincidence? Who cares?

They are actual statistics, something you have failed to provide.

This from a mate in Vietnam a land where everyone wears masks and have 200 cases and zero deaths.
How's america and most of the non mask wearing western world fairing again????

Report back if you have something of value
Or not.

[GordMay]

“Would everyone wearing face masks help us slow the pandemic?”
There is a clear divide among nations when it comes to the public use of face masks; from commonplace in much of Asia, to strongly dissuaded in the United States, to obligatory in the Czech Republic.
There is only meagre evidence that mass mask-wearing will help to slow the spread of COVID-19, and there are downsides; whether from a false sense of security, or a shortage of masks for health workers, who sorely need them. "Science" outlines the arguments on both sides.
More ➥ https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020...fb868-45020405

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

They are actual statistics, something you have failed to provide.

This from a mate in Vietnam a land where everyone wears masks and have 200 cases and zero deaths.
How's america and most of the non mask wearing western world fairing again????

Report back if you have something of value
Or not.

I'm not arguing with the statistics.

My contribution of value, in this case, is to point out the logic error with drawing the conclusion that it's primarily (or perhaps in any way) related to folks wearing masks. Correlation isn't causation. Those places circled in different color pen also have other significant differences.

I would also point out the other posting that you made about our ability to flatten the curve simply through staying home, which I (and scientists) believe to be significantly more important during the phase we're all in.

[thinwater]

I'm staying home, because I can. I have a job that gives me that luxury. For most of the people read this that is true. My company also has many people out there in the trenches, still working, and so for 10 hours a day, distancing is a challenge an will occasionally fail.


I'm surprised by the number of respondents who want masks not to work.

• The 0.1 micron thing is off target. The primary reason social distancing works is that most of the virus is associated with larger particles that drop to the ground within 6 feet (or so). If this were otherwise, social distancing would not work. This has been explained by the CDC and other authoritative sources. Stable aerosols (such as fog, vaping, nebulizers, etc) can travel great distances. Thus, a mask that can stop larger particles, say those less than 10 microns, will stop the larger particles we are most concerned about. Medical procedures, on the other hand, can produce aerosols, such as the use of a nebulizer. But we're not talking about health care workers.
• A simple mask is to protect others from you, not to protect you. I think the majority of the negative posters are focused on protecting themselves. That is not the point.
• Increased risk due to careless handling. Yup, some folks are dumb. But if the purpose of the mask is to protect others from you, the only virus on the mask is probably from yourself, so you're not increasing your risk of infection. That said, it is simple to handle a mask properly. Instruction are found on the net.
• DIY masks. We're not talking about taking mask from health care workers. No one has suggested that, so let's drop it. It would be unethical. Really, early surgical masks, which do reduce exposure from the doctor, worked in spite of being very simple affairs.

So negative. If ordinary surgeon's masks do not serve a purpose, why do they exist? We seem to ignore this obvious truth. They exist to protect OTHERS. This is about altruism.

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by thinwater

I'm surprised by the number of respondents who want masks not to work.

So negative. If ordinary surgeon's masks do not serve a purpose, why do they exist? We seem to ignore this obvious truth. They exist to protect OTHERS. This is about altruism.

The surgeon general didn't say "masks don't work". But he's making recommendations to protect our health overall. Also, I don't think anyone "doesn't want them to work".

I have a wife who is a health care worker. I know first hand the effects of shortages on health care workers, and the risks they're forced to take every day. The risks I'm taking as a family member. Until the mask shortage is corrected, I want people to follow the guidelines.

There also seems to be a bit of confusion about who is being protected by masks. Their chief value is protecting others, not yourself. Studies show that people who use masks often increase their own risk. The studies are more or less inconclusive, though.

My belief is that most people are looking for self-protection from masks so they can go out in public. It's a bit of a false sense of security. The more effective strategy is social distancing.

If people want to make their own masks, I'm all for that. But they shouldn't get a false sense of security out of it.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3

... My belief is that most people are looking for self-protection from masks so they can go out in public. It's a bit of a false sense of security. The more effective strategy is social distancing.

If people want to make their own masks, I'm all for that. But they shouldn't get a false sense of security out of it.

^^ This is dead on.