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Old 30-12-2014, 07:55   #31
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Re: responsibility

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And how does the other party receive compensation for his/her damages or injuries.
if you are not insured, its very unlikely the other party ever will get compensation, but you could be bankrupted in the process.

dave
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Old 30-12-2014, 07:57   #32
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Re: responsibility

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I can't quote the exact specifics, because I could cause libel,............. .
OK, post some links to actual cases. Otherwise you haven't answered the question.

If what you are saying is accurate, that would put many of us in the category of uninsured boaters. And that would be a big problem for innocent boaters who we might injure.

Consider this - You drink and drive and have an accident. You know drinking and driving is illegal but you do it anyway. Your insurance pays. It can't refuse to pay the injured party because you broke the law. If it could, insurance would be worthless.
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Old 30-12-2014, 08:15   #33
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Re: responsibility

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Originally Posted by rwidman View Post
OK, post some links to actual cases. Otherwise you haven't answered the question.

If what you are saying is accurate, that would put many of us in the category of uninsured boaters. And that would be a big problem for innocent boaters who we might injure.

Consider this - You drink and drive and have an accident. You know drinking and driving is illegal but you do it anyway. Your insurance pays. It can't refuse to pay the injured party because you broke the law. If it could, insurance would be worthless.

You might find this link interesting

marine insurance


I quote this piece in particular

Quote:
Section 78(4) of the Marine Insurance Act 1906 states that:

"it is the duty of the assured and his agents, in all cases, to take such measures as may be reasonable for the purpose of averting or minimising a loss."

We see cases where claims were rejected by the insurer because:

the consumer cast off without taking appropriate precautions;
the consumer ignored weather warnings; and
the consumer ignored warnings about the condition of the vessel.
If an insurer wants to reject a claim on the basis that the consumer did not use reasonable care, we will look carefully at the evidence involved.

If we are satisfied that the consumer was reckless - as they were aware of the risk but chose to carry on without taking precautions to avert it - we may decide that the insurer was entitled to reject the claim.
Note the last paragraph
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Old 30-12-2014, 08:40   #34
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Re: responsibility

I do not think there is a clear cut line. There are stupid consumers and there are stupid law makers. Some law makers are sailors too! This makes for a very dense, very over-regulated social, legal, moral, stew.

b.
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Old 30-12-2014, 08:53   #35
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Re: responsibility

People here seem to keep confusing their in-country automobile insurance with offshore boating insurance. And auto insurance changes from company to company and state to state in the US.

As for drinking and driving, does any US automobile insurance pay damages to a convicted drunken driver who wrecks his car?
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Old 30-12-2014, 09:09   #36
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Re: responsibility

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post

I see this all the time here, where caravan orientated Gas fridges are installed in boats in direct contravention to CE ( and BSS) regulations.
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SC.... I think someone is speaking of your new install...........
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Old 30-12-2014, 11:51   #37
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Re: responsibility

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SC.... I think someone is speaking of your new install...........
I know, I'm trying to ignore them.

Gee, lets see, ABYC A-3 lists the recommended construction methods for galley stoves. 46 CFR adopts this as code, "for Commercial Vessels". This as 46CFR deals with commercial ships and inspected vessels only. But Recreational vessels in the US, fall under 33CFR and it does not reference ABYC A-3, least I can't find it if it does.

So my "crime" is replacing a 42 year old stove with a newer stove with similar or better safety systems, that is similar to 100,000's of other marine stoves currently on boats everywhere. It also complies with 33CFR and ABYC A-1. I don't see the problem.

I'm not one to worry about civil suits either as I'm pretty well already bankrupt. Things I don't worry about by being of extremely modest means.
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Old 30-12-2014, 12:06   #38
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Re: responsibility

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I know, I'm trying to ignore them.

Gee, lets see, ABYC A-3 lists the recommended construction methods for galley stoves. 46 CFR adopts this as code, "for Commercial Vessels". This as 46CFR deals with commercial ships and inspected vessels only. But Recreational vessels in the US, fall under 33CFR and it does not reference ABYC A-3, least I can't find it if it does.

So my "crime" is replacing a 42 year old stove with a newer stove with similar or better safety systems, that is similar to 100,000's of other marine stoves currently on boats everywhere. It also complies with 33CFR and ABYC A-1. I don't see the problem.

I'm not one to worry about civil suits either as I'm pretty well already bankrupt. Things I don't worry about by being of extremely modest means.
Good attitude...a friend of mine has so much money he can't spend the interest on his investments but he has a permanent frown. One day while at the dock I told him of my travels to the Marshall Islands and how the people we met basically had nothing but were a 9 out of 10 on the happy scale. I said, you have it all and you are grumpy half the time, whats wrong, he thought for a minute and replied, no wonder they are happy, they have nothing to lose!
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Old 30-12-2014, 12:24   #39
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Most car accidents are caused by operator error. US car insurance generally covers your liability for damage to the other car and their medical expenses whenever you are at fault, whether you went down the up ramp, ran off the road, or ran a stop light, irrespective of whether you were drunk, fell asleep, or just did something dumb. Some collision policies will cover damage to your own car and your own medical expenses from a DUI accident, but some will not.
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Old 30-12-2014, 12:32   #40
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Re: responsibility

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Jim,
Do you mind telling me which company you get 3rd party only liability from and a rough idea of the rate? We have been shopping and can not find a reasonable rate. Cheers, Robert
PM sent.
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Old 30-12-2014, 13:11   #41
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Re: responsibility

Thanks Jim
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Old 30-12-2014, 13:14   #42
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Re: responsibility

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Originally Posted by sailorchic34 View Post
I know, I'm trying to ignore them.

Gee, lets see, ABYC A-3 lists the recommended construction methods for galley stoves. 46 CFR adopts this as code, "for Commercial Vessels". This as 46CFR deals with commercial ships and inspected vessels only. But Recreational vessels in the US, fall under 33CFR and it does not reference ABYC A-3, least I can't find it if it does.

So my "crime" is replacing a 42 year old stove with a newer stove with similar or better safety systems, that is similar to 100,000's of other marine stoves currently on boats everywhere. It also complies with 33CFR and ABYC A-1. I don't see the problem.

I'm not one to worry about civil suits either as I'm pretty well already bankrupt. Things I don't worry about by being of extremely modest means.

Did I mention stoves anywhere in any of my comments - NO. :bang head:

dave
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Old 30-12-2014, 13:25   #43
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Re: responsibility

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Did I mention stoves anywhere in any of my comments - NO. :bang head:

dave
Oddly, my post was for general information and not aimed at you.
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Old 30-12-2014, 13:33   #44
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Re: responsibility

I was going to post this on either the waterheater post or on SC's post but this seams to be the right place being we're going in that direction..

A number of years ago I owned a metal shop where we built steel doors and door frames for mainly commerical buildings.
If the doors went into a school, hospital or such, they had to be "UL" rated. so we went throu the process of having the frames and doors tested..
Every size and shape had to go throu a burn test to make sure they would go throu the rigors of use and abuse. and fires mind you..
The testing cost was in the thousands per unit, and to recap the cost, if a lable was installed on the frame or door, the price was incresed over 300%.
Now the odd part,
The doors and frames were the exact same, in material and in construction, No difference what-so-ever except, the higher cost unit had a "UL" lable on it..

So many of the products we use, like the on-demand propane system, or on the galley stoves for marine use are exactally the same EXCEPT additional testing has been done and we the user has to pay that price.
Now I dont say that using these product that are not labled or tested are for everyone but the major amount of LONG TERM cruisers have a background in the mechanical field to keep everything working as needed and for them, products outside the limmits of labels and such should be acceptable..
Many systems on our boat would boggle the minds of designers but we do what has to be done to make things work for us..
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Old 30-12-2014, 13:38   #45
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Re: responsibility

Start here. Maritime Law Association of the United States in the search window type in boating briefs. You'll find many insurance cases.

Also go to google scholar, and type in the name of you insurance company, the Admiralty action, then tick the federal courts.

Lloyd

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I keep reading these "If you make an unsafe modification to your boat your insurance won't cover you." posts on boating forums but I've never seen anyone post any proof of this, only "Check with your agent.".

It seems to me that this is exactly what insurance is for; to cover your mistakes.

If putting a non-approved propane heater on your boat (I wouldn't do that BTW) negates your insurance and doesn't cover someone else's injuries or damages, what's the point in having insurance in the first place? And how does the other party receive compensation for his/her damages or injuries.

So - Let's see the proof. Put up or shut up.
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