Resistance to DSC VHF

[SV Enough]

Originally Posted by btrayfors

Mark,

I applaud your efforts to educate re: VHF DSC. Some folks are gonna take to it like ducks to water while others are going to resist...to the bitter end.

One note on MMSI's which hasn't been mentioned. While it's true that the Boat U.S. and other U.S. organization-issued MMSI numbers are different from...and less useful...than the MMSI numbers issued by the FCC, you can't just assume that the latter will automatically be entered into the ITU database.

I've had my MMSI number issued by the FCC for quite a few years now, and in a recent search of the ITU database found that it was NOT entered into my record. There was no entry at all. I sent them an email with the correct information, they thanked me for the email, and a couple of weeks later I find that they have in fact entered the correct MMSI number.

So, I now have the MMSI number entered into my fixed VHF on the boat, and into a newly acquired handheld VHF (the Standard Horizon HX-851) as well.

Will I ever actually USE DSC? Maybe. Maybe not. Even in an emergency. Whether or not DSC makes the most sense depends very much on the circumstances: boat location, type of emergency, training, skill level, and experience of crew, etc., etc.

There are times when DSC might make good sense. There are times when it wouldn't, in my opinion. And, hey, I'm a radio guy. Extra Class ham, lifetime sailor, very active on-the-air on both ham and marine bands, Net Controller on maritime nets, etc.

It's a good tool to have available but, like in most all matters, the choice of the proper tool for the situation-at-hand can be vitally important.

Bill
WA6CCA

Yes this can happen and it is why I mentioned it in my earlier post containing the ITU search web site, call sign and MMSI. I do not know what it is in the FCC application which triggers the flush through to the ITU and if anyone comes across the answer of what it is please share.

A guess is the foreign contact traveling outside the US questions, but I am only speculating.

Your friend,
Mark

[SV Enough]

Originally Posted by Greg S

Bill,

OK, logging into the FFC license manager I DO see my MMSI listed there. Is there some place else I should be looking to check that? Got a link to that ITU database?

Greg

From an earlier post.
"FCC MMSI can be flushed through to the ITU (http://www.itu.int/online/mms/mars/ship_search.sh) if you fill out the forms properly. Enter the ships call sign WDD7616 or MMSI 367188830 and there she is."

Your friend,
Mark

[Greg S]

Ah yes, back on post #48

Never mind Bill, and thank you Mark.

[btrayfors]

Originally Posted by Greg S

Bill,

OK, logging into the FFC license manager I DO see my MMSI listed there. Is there some place else I should be looking to check that? Got a link to that ITU database?

Greg

Greg,

Yes. Try here: Particulars of Ship stations

Bill

[btrayfors]

Originally Posted by psneeld

...can't imagine a situation where I'd rather be at the radio than the emergency aboard my vessel unless I had a military/MM trained crew on board to deal with it...

- Medical emergency.

- Mechanical breakdown with threatening WX on the way.

- Calling on behalf of another vessel in distress nearby.

- Calling a known responder nearby (Harbor Police, USCG unit)

- Calling Mayday when other nearby boats are most likely responders (many of which don't have or don't know how to use DSC)

etc., etc.

There are lots of such situations.

However, there are indeed situations....as I said...when a DSC call would be both appropriate and better than a voice distress call.

The trick is to know the difference :-)

Bill

[SV Enough]

Originally Posted by btrayfors

- Medical emergency.

- Mechanical breakdown with threatening WX on the way.

- Calling on behalf of another vessel in distress nearby.

- Calling a known responder nearby (Harbor Police, USCG unit)

- Calling Mayday when other nearby boats are most likely responders (many of which don't have or don't know how to use DSC)

etc., etc.

There are lots of such situations.

However, there are indeed situations....as I said...when a DSC call would be both appropriate and better than a voice distress call.

The trick is to know the difference :-)

Bill

Medical emergency I would absolutely hit DISTRESS as my first action. Real time info on the patient would be by voice if I can get the CG to get past the 40 questions and focus on the medical emergency. Our MMSI application contains my wife and my known medical conditions as well as our family doctor phone number. The CG has my position and all the data from the MMSI in the ITU and CG PSIX databases for the MMSI, why would't I hit the DISTRESS first?

Mechanical breakdown I would use the TowBoat US entry in the radio phonebook. If WX was an immanent parle DISTRESS and go from there for similar reasons outlined above.

Calling for another vessel, DISTRESS to get the CG attention then voice explain the situation so the CG at least has an accurate fix to start with so we can move on from that point with the 40 questions.

Known responder. For the CG at least I have posted the MMSI for the sectors I know about, there may be more now, along with the universal CG MMSI all sectors respond to and the universal international MMSI the CG also responds to. At least one of these needs to be in the radio phonebook for non-DISTRESS contact.

Calling mayday to nearby boats by voice is sound, but I would still hit DISTRESS anyway.

Etc, etc, etc there are lots of situation where you should't be shy about hitting DISTRESS even if voice is still used as part of the process. Or have important MMSI in the phonebook like you have scribbled next to your phone at home.

Here is a real example were if there is a genuine DISTRESS don't be shy. St. Pete marine is next to a general aviation airport in the South basin where we live. There is a north/south runway which ends just outside the marina breakwater at its the north end. One day while spraying off topside a heard some odd sound including crunching, scrapping, and squealing tires. I looked up and a plane landing south to north was running off the end of the runway and was going in the water. Guess what I did?

I went below turned on the VHF and hit DISTRESS. When the CG came up there wasn't allot of gnashing of teeth about where the crash happened and CG boats were on seen in minutes as the St.Pete CG unit is on the south side of that same airport.

Don't be so timid about hitting the button, it only takes a moment and does not preclude voice.

Why do I keep running into this two dimensional thinking, either or, one or the other, this but not that, one tool is good enough? Use all the tools available all of the time. Think outside the box.

Your friend,
Mark

[delmarrey]

From what I've been reading, it seems the USA/Canada and some of the other first world countries are the only places that if you hit the DSC that some authority will come running.

In the S. Pacific it'll be fairly useless except to other boaters/ships that may have their radio on w/DSC. Nothing like pushing the button for help and no one to receive it. A MAYDAY might get more of a response.

This being an international web site, the button is getting a pretty hard push. Am I wrong?

When I was recently in the Philippines they didn't even have radios. They were texting on their cell phones. 60' and over were the mostly the ones you could even see an antenna.

[goboatingnow]

However, there are indeed situations....as I said...when a DSC call would be both appropriate and better than a voice distress call.

The trick is to know the difference :-)

Bill

quite frankly part of the problem in the US is lack of understanding of the whole GMDSS and where DSC fits into that picture. It's one of the reasons for example in Europe the VHF license requires an exam.

DSC Distress alerting should always be followed by a voice call wherever possible it should really never be used on it's own. Hence a Distress Alert should be followed by a conventional MAYdAY, an urgency alert by a PAN PAN etc.

Under GMDSS the distress alert is designed to alert the designated shire station FIRST. The primarily control of rescue has moved under GMDSS to the coordination MRCC not to ships in the vicinity ( under SOLAS). DSC is primarily designed to do that .

Ps class d VHF maybe new to the USA because only recently the USA joined the rest of the world in accepting class D over it's own SC101 protocol which was never allowed outside the US. The rest of us had class D only sets from the start of DSC ( well over 15 years now) no class D set should have a distress acknowledge function. This is a feature reserved for class A sets

Also the mere fact of applying fir the FCC MMSI triggers an update to the ITU database and means your boat call sign and MMSI are printed into the big ITU directory telephone style books that ships have to carry.
I never understood why the US implemented the non standard boat/us mmsi thing.

Dave

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by btrayfors

- Medical emergency.

- Mechanical breakdown with threatening WX on the way.

- Calling on behalf of another vessel in distress nearby.

- Calling a known responder nearby (Harbor Police, USCG unit)

- Calling Mayday when other nearby boats are most likely responders (many of which don't have or don't know how to use DSC)

etc., etc.

There are lots of such situations.

However, there are indeed situations....as I said...when a DSC call would be both appropriate and better than a voice distress call.

The trick is to know the difference :-)

Bill

I specifically mentioned fire and flooding for that reason...the two emergencies I couldn't imagine not using it...my point is that it's a push and go feature...to the point of even telling a total novice (child, non-boater, etc) to go and push while you attended to more important issues.

I know when to use it...more clearly than you can imagine because of my current and former jobs.

I know how easy or not easy they are to hook up and I clearly understand it's limitations versus EPIRB/PLB and the differences with SPOT. Like the OP...I wish more people understood all the rescue devices....just reading through most of the posts, it's clear a lot of people might have read about and/or have limited hands on experience with these systems but little practical knowledge...especially about EPIRBs....the DSC system in the US is somewhat broke with just one of the reasons being the vast number of "unsubstatiated alerts"...kinda like the old EPIRBs...till that is fixed...both boaters and rescuers will have serious doubts about a system that should be stellar in reducing VHF traffic and enhance recue efforts.

[cfarrar]

A good point raised in this post. DSC is wonderful, but I am far more likely to get rescued by a lobsterman than the USCG, and that means using a traditional Mayday.

[SV Enough]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

quite frankly part of the problem in the US is lack of understanding of the whole GMDSS and where DSC fits into that picture. It's one of the reasons for example in Europe the VHF license requires an exam.

DSC Distress alerting should always be followed by a voice call wherever possible it should really never be used on it's own. Hence a Distress Alert should be followed by a conventional MAYdAY, an urgency alert by a PAN PAN etc.

Under GMDSS the distress alert is designed to alert the designated shire station FIRST. The primarily control of rescue has moved under GMDSS to the coordination MRCC not to ships in the vicinity ( under SOLAS). DSC is primarily designed to do that .

Ps class d VHF maybe new to the USA because only recently the USA joined the rest of the world in accepting class D over it's own SC101 protocol which was never allowed outside the US. The rest of us had class D only sets from the start of DSC ( well over 15 years now) no class D set should have a distress acknowledge function. This is a feature reserved for class A sets

Also the mere fact of applying fir the FCC MMSI triggers an update to the ITU database and means your boat call sign and MMSI are printed into the big ITU directory telephone style books that ships have to carry.
I never understood why the US implemented the non standard boat/us mmsi thing.

Dave

The Boat US et.al. thing happened because Americans are cheap. It cost $$ to get an FCC license and since US law had been relaxed to not require a license for those never leaving US waters folks didn't get an MMSI in droves. So these entities stepped in and arranged to dispense MMSI for free.

As for the rest, nine eleven happened and the gov woke from it's stooper and realized there is a big bad world out there. It was realized maritime traffic of all types was a GAPING hole in homeland security and the US was signatory to something called SOLAS, and look see it has something called GMDSS in it. There is stuff in there about DSC, AIS, Sea Area A1 and all sorts of other neat stuff, maybe we should get our heads out of our collective a$$ and join with the rest of the world and coordinate maritime security. Ya think?

Sc101 happened as once again Americans are cheap and sets built to the stripped down spec where cheaper. Why do things right when you can do them half a$$ for less. ;-)

It is so refreshing getting input from someone outside looking scratching their head and saying what where they thinking or for that matter where they thinking at all. That is why I watch BBC in America especially the news. You can see it in the news readers eyes when they report on the goings on in the colonies. It is so nice to get news that isn't twisted to a left or right slant.

Your friend,
Mark

[CSY Man]

Guess I am covered having 2 VHF DSC radios hooked up to 2 GPS navigators and with 2 antennas, 2 power sources, etc...

I know: Too much time on my hands..

[Greg S]

In looking at the manual it would seem that sending the DSC distress does not preclude you from then giving a shout on 16, once the digital distress has been sent. So it's not a either or, right?

[Kettlewell]

I can still see certain advantages to using the "party line" on channel 16 in the case of emergencies. Several times I have heard MayDays and discovered that I was quite close to the scene, so while the Coast Guard was playing 40 questions with the folks onboard I put the pedal to the metal and was heading toward the scene in case my help might be required. Other boaters did the same thing and managed to arrive before me, and well before the Coast Guard in at least a couple of cases I can recall. In one case the tugboat was sinking and the crew were trying to tell the CG that they were now getting ready to swim for it and they didn't have time to answer the 40 questions. Other times I have chimed in when I could with useful information, like when the CG couldn't understand garbled transmissions from the boat but for some reason I could hear the person crystal clear. Or I have provided on scene weather and wind conditions, etc. It is not clear to me how I as a peripheral cog in the rescue would know to provide this information if everything wasn't being transmitted in the open on channel 16.

[SV Enough]

Originally Posted by Greg S

In looking at the manual it would seem that sending the DSC distress does not preclude you from then giving a shout on 16, once the digital distress has been sent. So it's not a either or, right?

Absolutely correct. In fact voice before or after any DSC call should always be part of your thinking. DSC DISTRESS can go without voice if circumstance demand you deal with the situation aboard first, at least they know where you are (assuming GPS attached) and that you have a problem. But if at all possible voice should not be excluded, use any and all means you have available to facilitate communication. DSC is just a tool to reduce words, enhance clarity of critical information, reduce mistakes and confusion. All of which waste time but DSC is not a replacement for voice.

Your friend,
Mark