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Old 16-04-2013, 17:20   #106
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Originally Posted by rognvald View Post

The history of the world is recorded in technologically superior societies displacing the less fortunate indigenes. The US, Canada, Mexico, Central America, South America, New Zealand, Australia, South Africa, and the list goes on. Even in mother Europe, many indigenes were displaced initially by the Roman Empire and later by the Germanic tribes of Central and South Germany. The Angles and the Saxons were two Germanic tribes that displaced the early English and were to later become the most common moniker to describe England: Anglo-Saxon. In all respect, your politics are completely opposed to mine and your ideas embody the socialist view of history with a strong dose of "White Guilt." Whether you like it or not, Dave, we live in a Darwinian world where the strong survive and the weak perish. It's not the way we like to see the world, but it is the way it is. Man is driven by selfishness and greed--Darwinian survival traits that permit the survival of the organism. It is hardwired into our DNA and is the most essential trait of all living organisms. Schopenhauer called it "the will" in his book "The World as Will and Representation" as the one aspect of a human that takes precedence over all others. I would honestly love to live in a world of peace and harmony but we are fighting against 6 million years of human evolution. What kind of odds would you guess in that game? Good luck and good sailing. P.S. These intelligent discussions with divergent opinions like yours and others give this forum a huge advantage over others that lack depth and personal insight.
You did read my post didnt you. I was merely countering your view that we have to seem nice about it.

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Old 16-04-2013, 17:24   #107
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Good on ya. Since when did poverty become a justification for robbery?
Read history.

Russian revolution
French Revolution
Irish war of independance
Romania
Zimbabwe.
Etc etc etc

The list is extensive , in all cases a powerful and wealthy sections of society , suppressed a greater poorer population, who eventually had enough.

The fact is once you generate significant disparities of wealth, you build resentment , eventually that resentment overwhelms and topples those holders of wealth ( or course human avarice begins again)

All I was saying is if you expose poverty stricken societies to " great displays of wealth" , and it matters not that such wealth " was the result of hard work " , you generate resentment , anger and ultimately violence.

You cannot just pretend that the solutions to those in poverty is just hard work. Often these societies have few jobs , terrible pay rates , squalor and corruption that renders people powerless. That you get blacklashes.

I'm not condoning it , but having been in many carribean countries I'm not surprised at it, in fact I'm surprised there isn't more

I remember being accosted on a beach in Barbados , where a alovira (sic) seller was peddling his wares. Having already bought a bottle the day before . I repeatedly refused , he then berated me along the lines of , your wealthy , its your job to buy this and give me money. Like I said these societies are teetering on the edge of civil unrest.

( of course then its ok to rob the rich , its called the Arab spring , or something )


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Old 16-04-2013, 18:13   #108
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Re: Mass Robbery in St. Lucia

WOW!

Cool thread.

I thought about saying something along the lines (like someone else did) of victims and criminals but he got severely whacked.

I don't want to get whacked because I am American, white, rich, unobservant, unaware, snooty, loud, a pretty good shot, and ignorant either. So I won't say anything.
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Old 16-04-2013, 18:16   #109
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WOW!

Cool thread.

I thought about saying something along the lines (like someone else did) of victims and criminals but he got severely whacked.

I don't want to get whacked because I am American, white, rich, unobservant, unaware, snooty, loud, a pretty good shot, and ignorant either. So I won't say anything.
I don't believe it has anything to with being an American. Just white ( typically ) and gormless , many nationalities fit that profile

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Old 16-04-2013, 21:23   #110
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And they closed the "Prison on St Lucia" thread? THIS is a stupid thread! Find the criminals and put 'em in jail. If not...loose the tourists $

There are a LOT of high horses in this thread!
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Old 16-04-2013, 22:03   #111
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Re: Mass Robbery in St. Lucia

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So who did you rob to afford a 53' yacht?
Not sure how boat envy is part of this discussion.
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Old 16-04-2013, 22:06   #112
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Not sure how boat envy is part of this discussion.
Not envious, just commenting on relative wealth.
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Old 16-04-2013, 22:16   #113
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Re: Mass Robbery in St. Lucia

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Man is driven by selfishness and greed..
UTTER NONSENSE. Man is driven by what he is taught. If you teach selfishness and greed, that is what you get. If you teach cooperation and sharing, that is what you get. Plenty of peoples in the world live by cooperation and sharing.

This robbery in St. Lucia is just another robbery. Like train robbery in the past, you steal from those with the money.
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Old 16-04-2013, 22:17   #114
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Re: Mass Robbery in St. Lucia

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Not envious, just commenting on relative wealth.
So someone is wealthy if they have a vessel over 40/45/50ft ?????????

Perhaps they work harder at maintaining their vessel.
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Old 17-04-2013, 02:09   #115
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UTTER NONSENSE. Man is driven by what he is taught. If you teach selfishness and greed, that is what you get. If you teach cooperation and sharing, that is what you get. Plenty of peoples in the world live by cooperation and sharing.

This robbery in St. Lucia is just another robbery. Like train robbery in the past, you steal from those with the money.
I have to admire the naiveté of that ,

As for the last line, huge amounts of crime are perpetuated against poor people , often by their poor neighbours , its all a question of power.

Of course the robbery is just a robbery, but it has no similarities with train robberies. If you create, maintain and flaunt great disparities of wealth , you create tensions that often result in crime. Try taking a Ferrari into a ghetto !

Why do we have extensive Social welfare systems, partly because we want to defuse a potential underclass that could turn against us.

The haves always turn to shock /horror to protect their wealth and demand swift and often significant retribution. We used to transport people to Australia because they were so hungry they stole bread.

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Old 17-04-2013, 03:01   #116
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Re: Mass Robbery in St. Lucia

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Originally Posted by rognvald View Post
RebelHeart, I think your friend is suffering from what psychologists call "White Guilt." There were thousands of Black "expatriates" who went to Europe to live and pursue their art during the flowering of America's artistic Renaissance and continue to do so today. In music, tenor saxophonists Dexter Gordon, Bud Powell, Coleman Hawkins and Sidney Bechet; dancer Josephine Baker; vocalist Nina Simone and writers Richard Wright, James Baldwin and Langston Hughes. These are but a smattering of the famous Black/Brown Americans who went to Europe and were aptly named "expatriates" by world Historians. In my opinion, there is a dedicated proselytization by some to demonize White Europeans/Americans for their successes in the last 4,000 years of recorded history. This is what I call true racism and your friend is a guilty perpetrator as he and his kind seek to distort the truth to promote their social agenda.
just so we are aware of what an expat is:

Websters dictionary

1ex·pa·tri·ate verb \ek-ˈspā-trē-ˌāt\
ex·pa·tri·at·edex·pa·tri·at·ing

Definition of EXPATRIATE

transitive verb
1
: banish, exile
2
: to withdraw (oneself) from residence in or allegiance to one's native country
intransitive verb
: to leave one's native country to live elsewhere; also : to renounce allegiance to one's native country
— ex·pa·tri·ate noun
— ex·pa·tri·a·tion noun


To be an expat - you not only have to leave - you have to renounce allegiance to your country.
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Old 17-04-2013, 03:20   #117
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Re: Mass Robbery in St. Lucia

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I have own stocks and have 401k with money invested. Just who is this corporation you accuse of being an evil thief? I assume you are talking about me.
Yes .

It is exactly the same as muslims who either put a penny into the hat for Al Quadia and freinds or simply do or say nothing against them (not that I blame most for keeping head down - but nonetheless acquiesaince is still support. Sipporters are part of the problem, if not actually the main problem - religions and "evil" corporations).

Big Corporations write the rules - no sh#t that they end up to own advantage, their may be side benefits to the peasantry but that not the intention and it's still crumbs off the rich man's plate. In the west (in the good times) enough of those crumbs to keep the peasants happy - elsewhere not so much.

It's kinda like Empires, they decline when no longer able to write the rules - happens to every one, presently happening to the West....time will tell whether we can adapt to a level playing field - or prevent others skewing it in their favour........

Just to say that I don't blame ya Don (for all the ills in the world ) same as me and most folks - yer use what you have got / the rules as they are to make the best of your hand of cards....attempting to create utopia is for others .

But I guess some folks (west and 3rd world) don't always feel constrained by the rich man's rules and tend more towards the freemarket(eer) approach - not to say that politeness cannot be involved with that.
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Old 17-04-2013, 03:42   #118
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Re: Mass Robbery in St. Lucia

Lack of incentive to work causes poverty. Haven't ya been to the islands where the lazy chiefs exploit the hard-worker youth until they give up? Or heard of communism or extreme unionism where the hard-workers were not rewarded? Or heard of countries with so much dishonesty and corruption that the economy won't work?
Heard of Germany where they work like maniacs and get so rich they are expected to support the laid back sunshine countries?
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Old 17-04-2013, 04:03   #119
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Lack of incentive to work causes poverty. Haven't ya been to the islands where the lazy chiefs exploit the hard-worker youth until they give up? Or heard of communism or extreme unionism where the hard-workers were not rewarded? Or heard of countries with so much dishonesty and corruption that the economy won't work?
Heard of Germany where they work like maniacs and get so rich they are expected to support the laid back sunshine countries?
A completely nonsense point of view ,

People want to work , study after study shows that. Many people lack the education, opportunity or ability to earn more then subsistence wages and they often work damm harder then some business man in an office.

Its got nothing to do with communism etc, that's just right wing idiocy speaking. That sort of talk has been handed down to the poor by their "masters" for generations. Thing is poor people are often smart , they know when their being handed bs.

Many countries have systemic reasons why a large part of their population is at poverty levels, often these people are powerless. Few countries have the historical wealth of generations( Europe) or abundant natural resources ( USA, Russia) and a government that seeks to better its citizens , without descending into tyranny.

Just leave out the white god-fearing messages ok. Its extremely patronising to people struggling to feed their kids


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Heard of Germany where they work like maniacs and get so rich they are expected to support the laid back sunshine countries?
What a hoot, the daily mail approach to the eurocrises. Explain how Ireland , in a bailout program, is forced to borrow its percentage of the Greek bailout fund!

All the Germans , and very other EU country is doing is guaranteeing a loan, the euro is a fiat currency , just like the dollar, the actual money is just printed. Germany will be paid interest just like any other banker. It only costs Germany money ( and then again not real money ) if Greece bails on its EU loans, you think the EU will ever allow that, hah ( see Ireland and bank guarantees for reference)

If you wish to use references to things , at least understand them first , otherwise you are promulgating myths and falsehoods
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Old 17-04-2013, 04:22   #120
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Re: Mass Robbery in St. Lucia

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A completely nonsense point of view ,

People want to work , study after study shows that. Many people lack the education, opportunity or ability to earn more then subsistence wages and they often work damm harder then some business man in an office.

Its got nothing to do with communism etc, that's just right wing idiocy speaking. That sort of talk has been handed down to the poor by their "masters" for generations. Thing is poor people are often smart , they know when their being handed bs.

Many countries have systemic reasons why a large part of their population is at poverty levels, often these people are powerless. Few countries have the historical wealth of generations( Europe) or abundant natural resources ( USA, Russia) and a government that seeks to better its citizens , without descending into tyranny.

Just leave out the white god-fearing messages ok. Its extremely patronising to people struggling to feed their kids

Dave
Dave

We can agree a long way down this road. But Dumnmad has a point, albeit he has part of it wrong. Lack of incentive doesn't cause poverty. It does cause society to stay at whatever level is required to survive.

case in point - why have most of the technological advances occurred in the northern hemisphere? Because the population there is smarter, whiter, blue-eyed or or or?

Actually it is because of "necessity is the mother of all invention". Cold climates, heavy storms etc etc etc, required humans to perfect building techniques in the far north, to a degree not necessary in areas further south, where the climate was not as adverse.

The same causes were the reason central heating was invented.

Agricultural societies came into being because there was not enough food naturally available for the populace. Think of some of the south sea islands before the coming of the europeans. We tend to idealize these societies because we claim they lived in harmony etc. In reality, they lived in a benign climate where sufficient food was available - ergo no need to expend time/energy on inventing central heating /a/c.

So it is a lack of incentive AND lack of opportunity that causes poverty. Incentive alone doesn't do it.

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