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View Poll Results: do you plan to have a liferaft on your boat when heading out to cruise?
yes 180 64.98%
no 97 35.02%
Voters: 277. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 24-10-2011, 10:45   #196
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Re: Liferaft: Yes or No ?

Staying near the shipping lanes creates a tremendous risk to the boat. "If I stay near the shipping lanes then when a freighter runs over me I will be more likely to be picked up by the next on that comes along".
"Lets go play in the freeway so if we get hit by a car the ambulance can find us more easily."
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Old 24-10-2011, 10:47   #197
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Re: Liferaft: Yes or No ?

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Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Your example of having brakes and liferafts is way OFF BASE.... having brakes on a car is a necessity for day to day operation otherwise almost EVERY time you used the car there would be an emergency.

NOT having brakes on a car is like having a hull full of leaks and NO bilge pumps onboard (or not working well).... kinda like a lot of commercial fishing boats through the years that have sunk and killed crewmen because they left the dock sinking and the pumps never kept up with the situation.

But equating safety gear to essential gear just dilutes the discussion.
A better analogy would be having a 10 airbag system in a car, but driving a car is statistically (and realistically) far more dangerous than sailing across the ocean in a boat.
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Old 24-10-2011, 10:50   #198
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Re: Liferaft: Yes or No ?

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Originally Posted by Mexdon View Post
The value of the boat is not the equation here, it is the value you put on your life and more importantly on the lives of your family, children, friends. If that has no value for you then go ahead don't have a life raft...but don't drive a car a with brakes either.
You have completely missed my point. Implying that I don't care about my families safety because I can't afford 15% of the purchase price of a boat on a piece of safety equipment, that will most likely never be used, is offensive. My point was that IF (that implies a hypothetical situation) everyone had to spend 15% of the cost of their vessel on their lifer raft, there would be far fewer life rafts and far fewer people saying it is irresponsible to be without one.
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Old 24-10-2011, 10:51   #199
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Re: Liferaft: Yes or No ?

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Originally Posted by psneeld View Post

But equating safety gear to essential gear just dilutes the discussion.
In my mind and for my family safety gear is essential gear.

Life Jackets...essential or safety? Jack lines.....essential or safety? Compass....essential or safety? Bilge pumps.....essential or safety? Navigation lights....essential or safety?

Would you go to sea (open water) without any of these?

The list could go on. I think that we give to much importance to non essential luxuries and using those in the argument would dilute the discussion.
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Old 24-10-2011, 10:54   #200
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Re: Liferaft: Yes or No ?

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Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
You might want to read (this to the original thread poster) 76 days Adrift by Steven Callahan. Looks like a good water maker and spear gun might be good things to have also. Plus, knowledge of ocean currents etc depending on where you plan to sail. Like a poster said earlier, when you are out there and it's dark and cold, your opinion of what you do and don't need tends to change.

Link: Amazon.com: Adrift: Seventy-six Days Lost at Sea (0046442257329): Steven Callahan: Books

Tom

Thanks but I already know the basics of the story and a few low odds dramatic stories doesn't mean much to me.

Guess no one knows the odds of getting into your life raft, but never getting saved.
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Old 24-10-2011, 10:58   #201
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Re: Liferaft: Yes or No ?

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Originally Posted by wolfenzee View Post
Staying near the shipping lanes creates a tremendous risk to the boat. "If I stay near the shipping lanes then when a freighter runs over me I will be more likely to be picked up by the next on that comes along".
"Lets go play in the freeway so if we get hit by a car the ambulance can find us more easily."
NEAR or IN shipping lane...READ carefully what I said...don't drag me down to that inane level...like I won't let the "absolute must have one" crowd.....

Being NEAR a road helps you get saved....being ON the road or in the wilderness can be just as bad....
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Old 24-10-2011, 11:02   #202
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Re: Liferaft: Yes or No ?

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Originally Posted by Anonymous7500 View Post
You have completely missed my point. Implying that I don't care about my families safety because I can't afford 15% of the purchase price of a boat on a piece of safety equipment, that will most likely never be used, is offensive. My point was that IF (that implies a hypothetical situation) everyone had to spend 15% of the cost of their vessel on their lifer raft, there would be far fewer life rafts and far fewer people saying it is irresponsible to be without one.
No I did not miss your point. What I am saying is safety should not be brought down to a dollar value percentage wise or otherwise. Safety gear should be an integral part of any boat. I was arguing against your argument and not referring to you personally or what you can or cannot afford, that is not the issue.

Since I started sailing at age 5 I have had it drummed into me that you MUST have safety gear aboard appropriate for the journey. Bay sailing life jackets, ocean cruising.....for me a life raft.

After all a forum is just a collection of individuals opinions, and thank goodness we all think differently or this discussion would have died on the second post.
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Old 24-10-2011, 11:03   #203
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Re: Liferaft: Yes or No ?

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Originally Posted by Mexdon View Post
In my mind and for my family safety gear is essential gear.

Life Jackets...essential or safety? Jack lines.....essential or safety? Compass....essential or safety? Bilge pumps.....essential or safety? Navigation lights....essential or safety?

Would you go to sea (open water) without any of these?

The list could go on. I think that we give to much importance to non essential luxuries and using those in the argument would dilute the discussion.
This post shows just how narrowly you are thinking.
And like I posted to the other camp of similar narrow thinking...I won't be drug down to argue the obvious...

I know what I will/won't have aboard my boat...and it's NOT my place to tell you what you should or shouldn't have...BUT as a RESCUE EXPERT and EXPERT instructor of maritime safety...I CAN tell you what will help or increase your odds of survival....having pulled PLENTY of people from the water....

Whether you believe or disbelieve will hopefully only affect you.
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Old 24-10-2011, 11:05   #204
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Re: Liferaft: Yes or No ?

Granted
Someone seams to have confused safety equipment: necessary at all times, with survival equipment: necessary in case the unthinkable (something we should think about really) happens.
There is no safety OR essential...safety IS essential
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Old 24-10-2011, 11:05   #205
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Re: Liferaft: Yes or No ?

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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
Cold weather survival gear might seem unlikley for a car in Florida. But in January, stuck out on a dirt road when the temps drop to the low 40's and the orange crops are being misted and smoked to prevent freeze damage? Yes, that extra blanket and candy bar still can prevent hypothermia, or make you night pass in comfort.
Exactly my point! While it is possible to need it, it is so unlikely that an extremely tiny minority probably actually carry the gear that could save their lives. A blanket, a bottle of water and some trail mix.....less than $10. That safety equipment doesn't even require repacking every couple of years. Yet, on here, the idea of not spending thousands to protect against a similarly unlikely event is unthinkable to some.
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Old 24-10-2011, 11:12   #206
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Re: Liferaft: Yes or No ?

Plus the word "safety" is already thin in this type of discussion on survival equipment...as we can see there are different viewpoints on what is and what is not "important"..

The reason for this is because on the grander scale most organizations have evolved to "operational risk management" under the assumption there's always risk and not always the means to eliminate all of it.

With that in mind...both camps are partially correct in their assumptions...but equating liferafts to brakes or not boating near rescue resources for fear they are the same ones that will run you over is why there are so many posts on such a relatively simple subject..not simple decision...simple subject.
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Old 24-10-2011, 11:16   #207
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Re: Liferaft: Yes or No ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
This post shows just how narrowly you are thinking.
And like I posted to the other camp of similar narrow thinking...I won't be drug down to argue the obvious...

I know what I will/won't have aboard my boat...and it's NOT my place to tell you what you should or shouldn't have...BUT as a RESCUE EXPERT and EXPERT instructor of maritime safety...I CAN tell you what will help or increase your odds of survival....having pulled PLENTY of people from the water....

Whether you believe or disbelieve will hopefully only affect you.
Do you know what I am advocating?
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Old 24-10-2011, 11:26   #208
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Re: Liferaft: Yes or No ?

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Exactly my point! While it is possible to need it, it is so unlikely that an extremely tiny minority probably actually carry the gear that could save their lives. A blanket, a bottle of water and some trail mix.....less than $10. That safety equipment doesn't even require repacking every couple of years. Yet, on here, the idea of not spending thousands to protect against a similarly unlikely event is unthinkable to some.
Thing is this whole debate isn't about whether people have survival equipment: a ditch bag with food, water, water maker, eprib, etc.... all of which could be carried in a dinghy....it is solely about the whether or not someone chooses to carry a commercial inflatable life raft as their form of survival flotation. Whether or not someone carries survival supplies is not something that needs to be debated, it is a "no brainer", though how complete a ditch bag is a topic for a whole different thread.
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Old 24-10-2011, 11:36   #209
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Re: Liferaft: Yes or No ?

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Thing is this whole debate isn't about whether people have survival equipment: a ditch bag with food, water, water maker, eprib, etc.... all of which could be carried in a dinghy....it is solely about the whether or not someone chooses to carry a commercial inflatable life raft as their form of survival flotation. Whether or not someone carries survival supplies is not something that needs to be debated, it is a "no brainer", though how complete a ditch bag is a topic for a whole different thread.
Much better..
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Old 24-10-2011, 11:41   #210
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Re: Liferaft: Yes or No ?

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driving a car is statistically (and realistically) far more dangerous than sailing across the ocean in a boat.
Hmmm . . . according to the national transportation safety board data in 2009 (most recent data) there was 1.13 fatalities per every 100 MILLION vehicle miles In the USA (that's 33,808 fatalities per 2,979 billion vehicle miles). I believe that in fact is statistically significantly SAFER than sailing across an ocean.

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Originally Posted by Anonymous7500 View Post
Exactly my point! While it is possible to need it, it is so unlikely that an extremely tiny minority probably actually carry the gear that could save their lives. A blanket, a bottle of water and some trail mix.....less than $10. That safety equipment doesn't even require repacking every couple of years. Yet, on here, the idea of not spending thousands to protect against a similarly unlikely event is unthinkable to some.
Excellent point. Yes, people certainly do not evaluate different risks, nor different ways to mitigate a single risk, in a consistent fashion. Yours is a better and simpler to understand example than my attempt with the crash pump. Another way would be to ask how many of the people who insist a raft is absolutely necessary also carry sheets of plywood and caulking (and battery drill and bits and sufficient sheet metal screws) to repair hull damage at sea - a more effective solution to many potential sinkings at sea situations.
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