Life Jacket with Drysuit?

[Clivevon]

I'm interested that nobody has suggested a dedicated liferaft for MOB use only. We all carry MOB gear in the form of horseshoe buoys connected to floating lights & danbuoys to mark position. The aviation industry can supply one man liferafts for use by pilots ditching in the sea, although they are relatively expensive (you can buy used and have it serviced & certificated for not much money).
In the boating world in UK, the cheapest liferafts are PVC 4 man sailing liferafts. I wouldnt want one as my abandon ship liferaft but it would actually be overkill for a MOB situation. Why not buy one of these and mount it on the pushpit for instant use only in a MOB situation? Tied in to the danbuoy & light by a long floating line and inflated by the MOB when he reaches it?
That is probably a cheaper solution than multiple drysuits for each crew and will give the MOB a much better chance of survival - always provided he can get to it.
I suppose a Rolls Royce solution (oops - Britishness showing) in cold seas would be drysuits AND a liferaft. But the MOB liferaft is a relatively cheap and simple precaution in cold water, I think?? I carry one. I should say that I wasn't born paranoid - I got this way over time...

[nortonscove]

My training included the instructions about not attempting to swim. Keep the energy that would be wasted. You'll need it for living longer.

[Mr B]

Would a small life raft not blow away in high winds making it impossible for the MOB to actually swim fast enough to catch it,
It would need to be small enough not to get blown away, Also to have a sea anchor to keep it in one place,
An aerial on the top of it so it can be seen by the MOB, Flag or strobe light on the top of the aerial,
Try swimming after a one gallon plastic container with all your gear on in high winds,
Its a good idea, But I dont think it would be feasible in practice,

[OrinocoFlo]

Even in a light breeze of 10 knots, a swimmer, especially one wearing a drysuit and a life jacket would never be able to swim fast enough to catch a drifting life raft.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by OrinocoFlo

Even in a light breeze of 10 knots, a swimmer, especially one wearing a drysuit and a life jacket would never be able to swim fast enough to catch a drifting life raft.

Definitely true.

Life rafts can be really useful for recovering MOB when there is difficulty in getting him on board -- he can roll into the life raft, and then the whole raft can be lifted or at least it gets him out of the water. This could be really handy when short handed, and it's one reason why I carry two life rafts. Or if the casualty is not conscious, so a crewman goes into the raft to work with the casualty from there. With a full crew and with the victim conscious and in a PFD with harness, lifting him out with a tackle should be much faster.

And in any case, you do this only when you've found and caught the MOB, and the life raft stays tethered to the boat.

At least that's the technique I know.

But I wouldn't just inflate a raft and throw it out. How would the casualty get to it? An untethered life raft with no ballast would be blown away pretty fast.


Anyway, getting back to the original question -- I guess it's answered -- you might actually need MORE buoyancy with a drysuit than without -- to keep you turned right side up. And probably not less. So I guess I will stick with my 275 newton PFD's.

They are 9 years old, but I've had them inflated for three days to be sure they are still holding air, and they are still hard as a rock. I think they will do, although I do note that there have been some innovations in life jacket design since then.

[Clivevon]

Thanks for the comments. I think this is a useful discussion, especially given recent news from the Volvo Ocean Race. In my original post, I did say "Tied in to the danbuoy & light by a long floating line and inflated by the MOB when he reaches it".

We are talking about sailing in cold waters, where the most likely cause of death for a MOB wearing a lifejacket would be hypothermia. Right now, the sea temperature in the English Channel is about 8 degrees Celsius - plenty of boats will be out sailing over the Easter holiday. At those temperatures you are on average likely to be unconscious in 45 minutes & dead in 90 minutes, give or take. In our summer, you could double those times, more or less.

IMHO, having the possibility of getting out of the water would be a big help. I carry an aviation type one man MOB raft stowed in its small valise inside a protective bag on my guardwires by the cockpit, it does have a separate drogue and danbuoy attached by a floating line, long enough so the raft & danbuoy can be dropped one by one. The idea is that the MOB pulls the inflation cord himself when he reaches the valise - so no wind drift.

So if you had a dedicated MOB liferaft in a quick release cradle outside the pushpit, you would drop the raft in its canister, NOT inflated, attached to a marker danbuoy & light by a longish floating line, so the MOB can see where the raft is, & has a long target (the line between the canister & the danbuoy) to go after.

The heavy canister would present very little surface area to the wind so would not be blown away Obviously much would depend on getting the gear promptly into the water as close as possible to the MOB. But that is no different to the usual horseshoe lifebuoy, drogue & danbuoy that we all carry anyway.

Presumably, the MOB would make every effort to reach the raft canister, given that death is the possible alternative. At least it would give him more of a chance.

OK, if it does turn out that the MOB is swiftly recovered, then recovering & deflating the raft is going to be a bit of a pain, but that is surely a possible price worth paying?

[Clivevon]

The JONBUOY is a similar concept:

https://www.oceansafety.com/sectors/...dule#details-3

Looks like it automatically inflates so maybe wind drift would be a problem, even with the large water ballast pocket. Maybe someone has tested this out sometime?

I think I will stick with my existing gear.

[LakeSuperior]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Anyway, getting back to the original question -- I guess it's answered -- you might actually need MORE buoyancy with a drysuit than without -- to keep you turned right side up. And probably not less. So I guess I will stick with my 275 newton PFD's.

And now from the office of redundancy office (tether, dry suit PFD), ...Dockhead, I agree with your above statement however it begs the bigger picture.

If one is tethered to the boat how does one go overboard? And, if one goes overboard what is the probability of being unconscious? Being dragged and drowned by your tether seems to be reported regularly.

A drysuit unless well fitted can restrict/limit mobility. Then add a PFD with a crotch strap and a tether. The layers of lifesaving gear ironically may actually increase the probability of going overboard.

In summary, I am wondering where the optimum is relative to the layers of lifesaving gear and survivability.

In addition, I would jump into relatively cold water with your new drysuit and high flotation PFD to see how it works for you. I am speculating that the residual air in the suit will end up in the shoulders/neck area. This will put some pressure on the inflated PFD causing you to end up wearing your PFD around your head. That scenario may interfere with vision and breathing as well as retarding your in water mobility. Caution, there may possibly be unintended consequences to the rig.

Would be interested to know how it works. Cheers!

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by LakeSuperior

If one is tethered to the boat how does one go overboard? By clipping too long. You know this, of course. A challenging problem on smaller boats. And, if one goes overboard what is the probability of being unconscious? Being dragged and drowned by your tether seems to be reported regularly. Regularly is a liberal exaggeration. Also, you should have a release at the harness end. Test that it releases under load AND that you can reach the release when the PFD is inflated (some block this).

A drysuit unless well fitted can restrict/limit mobility. If well fitted it is more agile than weather gear">foul weather gear. I think this is well proven by the number of racers that wear them. It has also been my experience. It also keeps the crew drier, warmer, and functioning better. There is no acceptable reason for poorly fitted gear. Then add a PFD with a crotch strap and a tether. The layers of lifesaving gear ironically may actually increase the probability of going overboard. Only if you are unfamiliar with the gear. You need to practice with it. Nothing should be cumbersome.

In summary, I am wondering where the optimum is relative to the layers of lifesaving gear and survivability. Without a dry suit in cold water in rough conditions your chances have proven to be very, very low.

In addition, I would jump into relatively cold water with your new drysuit and high flotation PFD to see how it works for you. I am speculating that the residual air in the suit will end up in the shoulders/neck area. This will put some pressure on the inflated PFD causing you to end up wearing your PFD around your head. That scenario may interfere with vision and breathing as well as retarding your in water mobility. Caution, there may possibly be unintended consequences to the rig. Agreed. My first suggestion!

I believe the reason PFDs require spray hoods in wild weather is BECAUSE they force your mouth straight up, making it impossible to clear your mouth. A case of a solution creating a problem, requiring another solution, adding complexity.

Would be interested to know how it works. Cheers!

xxxxx

[wrwakefield]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Something like this?

https://www.kayakacademy.com/product...iant=993336367

That is what we use and have self proven as effective. [And Kayak Academy is an excellent source and resource also...]

Most of the time we prefer the model with a small brim/bill [think baseball cap] in front to help keep sun/rain out of the eyes.

In very cold conditions we layer the two caps [cap with bill first, then the balaclava over that]. Very comfy.

It is worth noting [from a kayaker's perspective] that wearing this type of cap ameliorates our human cold water gasp reflex- which is especially pronounced when one's bare head is dunked in ice water... [In college we took turns hooking up an EEG machine to ourselves and- laying belly down on a table- lowering our faces into a tub of ice water... The outputs resembled modern art, and 10 seconds was the breath holding record...] Having jumped through ice holes into lakes in winter right from a sauna I can also attest it is a great [but not conclusive nor recommended...] test for aneurysms...

Cheers! Bill