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Old 03-10-2008, 14:47   #31
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Thanks Hello,
When I run out of old wire I'll buy some webbing. The experience I had with tubular webbing is that I installed it dry and cinched it up really tight. When it got wet it turned floppy. I want to be able to crouch or crawl along the side of the boat and be securely fastened in wet and dry weather so tubular stretchy webbing won't do it for me.
I can cut my tether.
When I'm in port I take the jacklines off. That would save a lot of UV time for those who use webbing.
Is Amsteel round like wire? If so that would roll underfoot just like wire.
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Old 03-10-2008, 15:22   #32
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Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
Tubular nylon webbing is much stronger than flat poly webbing but for either one, dye is an issue.
"Dye embrittlement" is the term that fabric makers use to describe the way that modern chemical dyes actually degrade the plastic and make it brittle, especially in sunlight (rich in UV). The worse dyes are the red family, followed by yellows. The ones that do the least damage and provide the strongest fibers are dark blue and black. Your best bet would be to check with whoever makes the webbing and ask them if they have specific information, or if you can get it from their supplier.

When I last asked a clothmaker about this it was in reference to spinnaker colors, and he suggested white or blue as the most durable. White has no extra UV protection--but no dye embrittlement problems. Black just never came up, you don't get many calls for black spinnakers.[g]


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"I've seen some rigged where the the tether is too long to " That's 70's equipment you're talking about. For the past decade or longer, SOP has been to use a double tether, with one long side and one short side (i.e. two feet and six feet) with the harness attached in the center. This allows you to chose the correct length, and also to STAY clipped on while passing obstructions like the mast.
In theory you always clip on in a manner that will prevent you from going into the water. In practice, you keep a razor sharp knife where either hand can access it--one handed and blind--in case the worst happens. (And that's not falling overboard, that's having the boat turn turtle and trap you beneath it, enfouled in lines or sails.)

John-
The reasons for not using spare wire line are twofold: First, it you are fouled somehow, you can't cut free of it. Second, it is round, and it can and will roll out from underfoot on the deck--throwing someone down. it is durable, and better than nothing, but those are the reasons it is officially unacceptable to groups like the ORC.
You are exactly right. I haven't been around for a while and had to read this entire thread to get to your post. I was wondering why no one brought up tubular webbing.

I used to build parachute sea anchors and I did a lot of testing of webbing. We used a tug-boat (in So Africa) to tow different parachutes made from different materials. I was impressed that we could not break 1/2" tubular webbing in any pull test that we did. 1" flat webbing frayed, broke and was never used in any of our sea anchors.

I also agree with died materials. We found that black nylon thread was very brittle and wouldn't stretch (without breaking) nearly as much as cooler colors. I found out that they have to boil the thread for long periods of time to get the black pigment to take.

We also built dodgers and Bimini's. Boat Blue dodgers would typically last about 40% longer than white and black dodgers (I only made 1 black dodger). The thought is that blue reflects UV, black and particularly red (eventually pink), absorbs the UV rays.
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Old 03-10-2008, 15:32   #33
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"When it got wet it turned floppy. " John, you forgot to read the instruction manual.<G>

We used to have the same problem with SCUBA tank straps, as soon as you hit the water they loosened up. Well...the folks who have done this before will all tell you that you have to soak the nylon FIRST, then tension it. Oddly enough the opposite is true for some of the synthetics like kevlar. Kevlar shrinks when wet--which can be a problem with kevlar sailing gloves.

If you still have your old nylon tubing, soak it, reinstall it, even if you cut it off before it may still be long enough now that it is wet.
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Old 03-10-2008, 15:42   #34
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Originally Posted by SkiprJohn View Post
The experience I had with tubular webbing is that I installed it dry and cinched it up really tight. When it got wet it turned floppy. I want to be able to crouch or crawl along the side of the boat and be securely fastened in wet and dry weather so tubular stretchy webbing won't do it for me.
We use tubular and along the same lines as Hellosailor says I just wet it before fitting then stretch it out.

In our case the aft end is shackled to the punched toerail (very strong toerail on our boat before anyone panics or has a red mist pass over their eyes - could probably lift the whole boat with strops shackled to it if wanted ) so the jacklines were made purposely to a length such that when wet they can just be pulled to tight with the shackle matching a punched hole. There is actually not alot of stretch when wet - quite a bit less than 1 foot in around 37 foot or so from memory.
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Old 03-10-2008, 20:17   #35
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I also agree with died materials. We found that black nylon thread was very brittle and wouldn't stretch (without breaking) nearly as much as cooler colors. I found out that they have to boil the thread for long periods of time to get the black pigment to take.
That's because nylon isn't porous like polyester and one reason to use impregnated yarns rather than dyed. And when you boil a nylon you are effectively seriously over heat setting it so it will go hard and hence shrink. Use a new nylon 3 strand (any construction) and after 3 or so good anchorings you'll find your 100mt warp in more likely to be 95mts odd. If it started off real soft and floppy it may get down to 90mts odd but will be a lot firmer.

Dying is a cheap way of getting usually cheaper raw material to look the same as the usual higher quality impregnated products.

I thought everyone used tubular webbing for jackstays. Bit surprised to find out otherwise actually. You do learn something new everyday, fancy that. Oh...maybe it's just the rules we run here, which do say 1" webbing must be the tubular, to get the strength I suppose.

Yes, Amsteel is round like wire but there are plenty of products made of the same material that will lie flat, dyneema webbing being just one.
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Old 04-10-2008, 13:18   #36
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Aloha Hello,
Yep, I learned that one the hard way and finally got it tight but I was mad at the stuff the whole time since the nice fitted sewed ends were in the wrong place.
So the cure for floppiness is getting it wet first? : )
Kind regards,
JohnL
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Old 04-10-2008, 15:34   #37
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Black REFLECTS ultra violet light

From laser research with ultra-violet light years ago it was discovered that black reflects UV which is why, in general, black tie-wraps outlast white ones.

Because black ABSORBS infra-red and near infra-red light and white reflects it people mistakenly assume that this is true for UV light as well. There is much more distructive energy with UV absorption than there is with infra-red absorption (assuming that the material does not melt from the heat).
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Old 04-10-2008, 15:58   #38
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From laser research with ultra-violet light years ago it was discovered that black reflects UV which is why, in general, black tie-wraps outlast white ones.

Because black ABSORBS infra-red and near infra-red light and white reflects it people mistakenly assume that this is true for UV light as well. There is much more distructive energy with UV absorption than there is with infra-red absorption (assuming that the material does not melt from the heat).
UV absorbtion in plastics (and paints are plastics too) depends mostly on the properties of the pigment used not the colour - absorbtion by the pigment provides protection. You will find that for plastics carbon black is a common pigment to get black and, as I posted earlier in this thread, you will also find that carbon black is a very good absorber of UV and in doing so converts it to heat thus protecting the plastic.

Other pigments of various colours also similalrly absorb UV providing protection - a white example is titanium dioxide which is also used in plastics.

Colour, on its own, of the plastic is not a good indicator of its resistance to UV. Any disbelievers may like to check on the internet - I've just checked, there is plenty of professional information there.

John
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Old 05-10-2008, 00:19   #39
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am interested in the discussion as need to replace jacklines. i checked the sail-rite website and they give a "breaking strength" of 2400lb (~1100kg) for 1inch (25mm) nylon tubular webbing. does that sound a bit on the low side??
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Old 05-10-2008, 01:32   #40
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We had vinyl covered wire for jack lines on our last boat. Did over 10,000 miles on that boat. Can't remember ever having a problem with it rolling under foot. It wasn't fun to step on but rolling just didn't seem to be a problem. Liked the non-stretchy nature of the vinyl covered wire and the ease with which the life line hooks slid along the wire. As far as not being able to cut the wire easily, don't think that is such a big deal. If I needed to cut myself loose, would cut the tether line to get free.

On our new boat, have used tubular nylon which works okay. Think I'll use amsteel the next time though. Amsteel's weave is fairly loose and readily flattens out when you step on it. The fact that it doesn't stretch I think would be a big plus.

I've long found that black colored lines and other things made of black plastic outlast white, light colored items. It was other long term cruisers that first made me aware of the superior UV resistant of dark synthetics. One long term cruiser bought two identical lengths of Dacron line. They were still using the black line 4-5 years after the white line had disintegrated.

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Old 06-10-2008, 07:49   #41
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REI sells quality climbing gear.
Realize however when using climbing gear that all grades of stainless are not the same, and climbing gear was never designed for constant salt water exposure. I have several SS climbing screw gate carabiners that are rusted shut after a year exposure to water. (Unfortuanatley many marine oriented stainless steel fittings are not made out of the grade they should be either!)
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Old 06-10-2008, 08:19   #42
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I used a flat web on Frolic. I believe it was 1 inch. I used SS buckles like on a Pilgim's shoe. Called a three bar adjustment slide

West Marine Annual Catalog - page 1264

I ran a loop through the stern cleat, and used this buckle. I then ran the webbing through the bow cleat, and over to the other stern cleat. I wet the webbing, and stretched it as much as I could, and then adjusted the webbing snug. When it dried it would be taught along it's length.

Trying to furl the main in a storm. It raised on me, and and knocked me off the boat in the middle of the night. I could see my body down to my ankles were over the lifeline. My thought was how will I ever pull myself up over the life lines with all the foul weather gear I was wearing.

Next thing I knew I was sitting on top of the traveller & dodger. The boat fell off the wave, and yanked me back up onto the boat. Before I furled the main I looked up to the stars with a grateful smile on my face.
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Old 06-10-2008, 09:30   #43
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Looks like Vagabond Outfitters (fleabay) has a 4000 lb tubular nylon.
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Old 04-11-2008, 18:11   #44
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Mine are yellow no signs of decay at the end of season 2 but South UK UV not too strong.
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Old 04-11-2008, 18:59   #45
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I second yellow...it looks nice and it might fade slower then others as well.

FWIW... For 15.00 Id go with the heaver web
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