The Merit of Paper Chart Back-Ups

[bayview]

[QUOTE=s/v Jedi;416143]Wrong???!! me? nahh... I'm never wrong ;-)


Thanks Jedi, I'm glad we both agree.

It would be interesting to do a poll and see who is navigating with which software. I was so disappointed in the Cmap I purchased that I've never bothered using it and have continued with paper charts.

I have noticed that the more modern the charts the less detail there is in the more remote inshore areas. In-fact my old fathom charts have inshore detail on them that allowed us to enter an anchorage recently, that I would not have considered, if I only had the latest release AUS chart, that showed the area in blue with the note shoal on it.

I cannot bring myself to discard the old charts because of this slowly deminishing detail thing that appears to be spreading like cancer across the more modern charts each time a later release is made for a particular area.
Anybody else notice this?

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by mesquaukee

I navigate on paper charts. There is no need for a backup. It was suggested earlier in this thread that paper charts will somehow fall apart with a slop of water while an electronic chart would survive. I find that very curious as after 19,000 nautical miles I have never lost a paper chart to water. They are failsafe, no fuse required.

Well, I never kept count of my nautical miles but as I've been at it for 40 years (I am 45 years old now ha ha) I guess it's a whole bunch. I did loose paper charts on multiple occasions. I had them rain wet and they fell apart; I had the wind take one out of the cockpit and into the sea and I had one showered in nice salty spray that smeared my pencil dead reckoning unreadable on a nice waterproof chart.

The last 10 years or so I am using electronic charts and I have never lost one.

cheers,
Nick.

[daddle]

Since we've proven that using paper charts as a back-up is silly and obsolete :-) What do we do to back-up the electronic charts? Seriously, do some passagemakers keep a reserve PC or plotter in a watertight aluminum box as backup? Seems a better idea than a case with a sextant, chronometer, charts and almanacs. No?

[hummingway]

[QUOTE=bayview;416358

It would be interesting to do a poll and see who is navigating with which software. I was so disappointed in the Cmap I purchased that I've never bothered using it and have continued with paper charts.
[/QUOTE]

I use Cmaps with Nobletec VNS Pro and am quite happy with it. I run them on a Sony Vaio. I use the vector maps. I always have charts beside me as well but I am in the Salish Sea, not open ocean. Even with the electronic charts, paper charts are a legal requirement in Canada unless you have local knowledge of the waters. Don't know how they would prove that one.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Therapy

Cool.

Then it will be just like exploring in the past.
Just turn off the plotter and be instantly in the past.

And they said time machines could not be built.

That would be very cool indeed and it will be environment friendly. AIS is playing a big role in that already, with it's ability to show channel markers that are not really there etc.
I expect that static navigational data (charts/photo's and virtual markers & danger areas) will be streamed to your boat from satellites in the future, just like the GPS satellites send us that tiny information stream today. May be C-Map and Navionics etc. will have their own birds up there if governments don't pick up the pace.

I can dream on: we could take a subscription that feeds us real time position, heading and speed of any pirates out there, calculating danger zones where they would be able to intercept us much like the anti-collision routines in AIS today. May be even decide that one comes to close and spend a couple of boat dollars and click it to mark it for "behavior correction" and watch the flash on the horizon that we just ordered.

Or when we enter a heavy shipping traffic area, our nav system could combine that satellite information with AIS data and plot us safe courses across the busy sea lanes with advised boat speed to clear all danger of collision while advising us tonights menu of that dockside restaurant near that slip we just reserved by click-selecting it.

And then, when we decide it's enough for a while, we shut it off and it's all gone, no markers, no lighthouses, no signs, just water and a shoreline.

ciao!
Nick.

[mesquaukee]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Oh my, now we get into tricky territory ;-) I will counter that with this: A paper chart destroys any sense of history or exploration. True explorers didn't have that gadget, they created it while exploring! Users of paper charts are no real sailors, utterly spoiled by modern gadgets that are not needed at all as proven by us true explorers and sailors!

cheers,
Nick.

How odd to say that a paper chart is not history. A paper chart is by all definitions history.

Even odder to say users of paper charts are not true sailors to which is tacked on the phrase “as proven by us true explorers and sailors”. Very interesting when one looks at the material in this thread.

Obviously there is a high tech definition of “history” , “sailors” and “explorers” which so very obviously has yet to survive the test of time.
An old paper chart has all the annotations of the period from when the soundings were taken, when the chart was printed and any subsequent penciled in observations. It has substance, a physical object that one can touch, that one can add to using a pencil and pen leaving an unique expression of one self at that time. One to which the present can be added without erasing the past. A paper chart is not only history but a record of exploration.

An electronic chart could never convey a sense of history. It is cold and impersonal. One mouse click is exactly the same as any other. No stains of time or place. No history. No substance. An electronic facsimile of reality easily modified to reflect the attitudes of the present. History easily erased and updated to leave no record of the past.

One day as was noted earlier in this thread paper charts will no longer exist.
One day electronic charts will no longer exist. We will all be able to travel anywhere we choose with little effort. We would simply plug ourselves into a virtual reality program.

[mesquaukee]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

But something changed here... instead of stating that electronic charts are bad because crucial information is missing, you now state that they have too much information and that makes the users not look at the water anymore. That's a 180 degree turn but nonetheless with the same negative view of electronic charts and their users. But you really do know that all good navigators look at the water and that all professional navigators, as well as the majority of serious private sailors, took all the courses to learn the trade and sailed and navigated for a long time using electronic charts.



Yes, this proves you really don't understand electronic charts, so let me give an example: the Turks & Caicos. There are no accurate charts for that area. Your paper chart will be based on soundings from a century or more ago, and my electronic chart will be based on soundings from a century or more ago. Hey, it turns out we have the same chart! Next part is about navigation skills. Do you seriously state that navigators that use electronic charts have less skill than those who use paper charts? I would find that a bit insulting even and so would every merchant officer! By now you must realize that there are no users of paper charts on commercial ships anymore because they all use ECDIS.


Every paper chart has been digitized. Even if you would manage to come up with a piece of paper showing a chart of some secret cove, I could scan and calibrate it and have it on screen and distribute it worldwide by posting it here before you could count to ten. The digital revolution has happened already.

We sail in the same area, so call out a place here, any place, and I will show you the electronic chart I have for it so that you can compare it with your paper version.

ciao!
Nick.

Assumptions. I understand electronic charts, I use them a lot. I use Maxsea, Fugawi, Bluechart and have used a whole variety of antique navigation programs.

I have been fully aware of the digital revolution and embrace it. However I only wish to point out a sense of history has been lost in the digital age.

I never stated in any manner what so ever that electronic charts contain too much information or too little or made any 180 degree turn.

I never stated electronic charts are more or less accurate than paper charts.

I have stated that I have met a number of people who are tied to their chartplotter and if it should die they would be stranded. They are fearful of going anywhere without wapoints that have been given to them.
This does not imply in any way that all people using chartplotters cannot navigate. It was not a slight on anyones navigation skills in any way as it was so obviously taken to be.

I am indicating that in some poorly charted areas an old paper chart can be more usefull in recording observations of one's picking ones way through an area. notes as to the type of bottom, what is seen off the edges of the track etc. I do keep an GPS or chartplotter running.
If I like the area I scan the chart into the computer, georeference it and add to it the track from the GPS to produce a personalized chart for later use.

I have never stated or implied that paper charts are in any way superior to electronic charts. I am only pointing out that paper charts can be much more useful in poorly charted areas for recording a wide variety of information.

I do find it curious why any defense of the use of paper charts has to be picked apart and ridiculed.

Paper charts convey a sense of history that electronic charts never will.

[dacust]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

And then, when we decide it's enough for a while, we shut it off and it's all gone, no markers, no lighthouses, no signs, just water and a shoreline.

I hope it never gets that way. I would hate it that someone couldn't build their own boat from spare lumber in their yard, and then go out on it without having battery power and the money to buy the electronics and the backup electronics required because there are no longer visual navigation markers. You'd even have to have electronics on a wind surfer (OK, that's pushing it, but you get my point) and your dinghy.

I'm not saying you're not correct. It'll probably happen. It's just that I hate it when technology gets adapted to the point that it becomes impossible (or illegal) to do something without it.

-dan

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by dacust

I'm not saying you're not correct. It'll probably happen. It's just that I hate it when technology gets adapted to the point that it becomes impossible (or illegal) to do something without it.

-dan

Me too.........sorta.

This shows your age and aging.

For the most part, as people age they tend to lose the ability to "keep up" and accept new things as reality. Nothing new here.

I like looking at paper charts.
I use a Garmin 5212 but dang if I know how to scan charts and use a laptop and plan routes and put them into the Garmin. The book is nearly useless on the details.
I even called Garmin and asked what this disk was and what the purpose of the "data CD programmer" was and what is this thingy used for and dang if I simply did not understand the answer(s).

Sucks, this aging thing. I just can't seem to learn some things.

Crap!

[svHyLyte]

Originally Posted by Therapy:

For the most part, as people age they tend to lose the ability to "keep up" and accept new things as reality. Nothing new here.

Therapy, I suspect for many it is less a loss of ability than it is a conscious unwillingness. The "new", high-tech stuff is very impressive-- until one looses power, for which many of the "adaptive" generation are unprepared. As one ages, one realizes that all the "new" stuff, frankly, "ain't that great". Novel, yes, but...

Slavish reliance on electronic wonders robs one of the ability to develop intuitive situational awareness and basic skills. While I think the electronic charting equipment of today is quite miraculous--and at this point we have no less than 5 chartplotters/gps devices aboard, we routinely shut the whole business down so that we do not forget--and the kids and grand kids do not fail to learn--how to keep track of our position, follow a course line in a cross sea and maintain our memory of "danger bearings" the "old fashioned" way.

As I said when I first began this thread, there is merit to maintaining a paper plot... Just in case, eh?

FWIW...

[dacust]

Originally Posted by Therapy

Me too.........sorta.

This shows your age and aging.

For the most part, as people age they tend to lose the ability to "keep up" and accept new things as reality. Nothing new here.

I like looking at paper charts.
I use a Garmin 5212 but dang if I know how to scan charts and use a laptop and plan routes and put them into the Garmin. The book is nearly useless on the details.
I even called Garmin and asked what this disk was and what the purpose of the "data CD programmer" was and what is this thingy used for and dang if I simply did not understand the answer(s).

Sucks, this aging thing. I just can't seem to learn some things.

Crap!

Actually, I was saying I don't like it when it becomes impossible or illegal to do it the old cheap way. Not that I don't like the new ways. I DO like creating my own electronic charts and building special computers for home and boat.

What I'd hate to see is if electronic navigation moves to the point where a young kid that wants to build his own boat out of scrap plywood, can't because he can't afford the $1-$2k to get the required electronics needed just for his home waters.

-dan

[Jim Cate]

G'Day All,

A long and interesting thread! For the record, on Insatiable we use Max Sea + C-maps, like a great many other long term cruisers. We also carry paper charts... perhaps not as many as in the past, and not religiously updated either, and we carry our old sextant and enough stuff to use it if required, and we damn sure carry and use a hand bearing compass. I guess this puts us well into the stodgy old fart shcool, but we're comfortable with this role, so WTF.

BUT, I must admit to being shocked when last September, while in Pt Vila, Vanuatu, we heard an incoming yacht on the VHF making the following blind call on ch 16: "Anyone in Vila -- we're just coming in from Fiji, and need Max Sea tracks for Vanuatu. Anyone have any to trade for ones from further East?. More shocking yet, he had takers!

I guess that this is a cottage industry that I was unaware of, but the implications of actually using and trusting such info from an unknown source are scary. We have a friend who put his yacht on a reef in the Louisiades following HIS OWN Max Sea track!

There may be a future recipient of a Darwin Award amongst the cruising fleet.

Cheers,

Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II lying Coasters Retreat, NSW, Oz

[dacust]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

We have a friend who put his yacht on a reef in the Louisiades following HIS OWN Max Sea track!

Exactly.

I challenge people to follow their own track, then go back compare the two tracks and see how close they were. Following your own track is a skill to be learned.

And how many people look at the accuracy the GPS is reporting while their first track is being made? And then look at the accuracy while trying to follow that track?

Combine the error in the GPS (10'? 40'?) times two and then add your own error in following it, and you can easily be off 50-75'.

There's a lot more to it than just tracing a dotted line.

-dan

[IslandHopper]

For those predicting the impending doom of paper charts, i received a reply from our regulating authority (AMSA) here in Australia as to the time frame of such a move.....

Good afternoon John,

Having been involved in Australia's delegations to the International Maritime Organizations' Safety of Navigation Subcommittee over the past several years, and having been party to the IMO's work on promoting ECDIS and developing the IOM's carriage requirements for ECDIS, it is clear that paper charts will need to be available for many years to come.

What I can see happening though is that as more Electronic Navigational Charts (ENCs) are produced for use in ECDIS there will be some paper charts of certain scales that will be withdrawn. As Hydrographic Offices produce more ENCs they are creating for themselves an increased workload to keep the ENCs and the paper charts up to date. This is one reason that paper charts may be rationalised a little - to help reduce the maintenance task.

I would not like to put a time frame on how long paper charts will be available since things can change quickly in line with rapid advances in technology. I'd be very surprised though if paper charts are not still widely available in 20 or 30 years from now.

Regards,

Nick Lemon
ACTING MANAGER
SHIP SAFETY
MARITIME STANDARDS DIVISION

Level 5, 82 Northbourne Avenue, Braddon ACT 2612
GPO Box 2181, Canberra ACT 2601
p +61 (0)2 6279 5656
f +61 (0)2 6279 5966
m +61 (0)417 297 415
e nick.lemon@amsa.gov.au
w www.amsa.gov.au



John

[mesquaukee]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

G'Day All,



.... we heard an incoming yacht on the VHF making the following blind call on ch 16: "Anyone in Vila -- we're just coming in from Fiji, and need Max Sea tracks for Vanuatu. Anyone have any to trade for ones from further East?. More shocking yet, he had takers!
........the implications of actually using and trusting such info from an unknown source are scary. We have a friend who put his yacht on a reef in the Louisiades following HIS OWN Max Sea track!

This happens all to frequently here in the Caribbean. Waypoints and tracks are traded freely with no explanations or notations of depths or hazards along a track or route or the chart datum.

There is a gradually acelerating reliance on technology that removes the need to learn the skills to navigate or pilot a boat through a passage using simple reliable tools.