Yep - we dragged!

[foggysail]

Originally Posted by Sojourner

I really fail to see why in holy heck anyone ever, anywhere, is hanging off a plow or cqr these days.... if you can't afford a decent anchor, you can't afford to cruise, period. I struggle for analogies, normally something I'm great at: It's like driving your new, much faster car with tires and brake systems from the twenties (and sliding off that curve in the rain into

You are being presumptuous! Cost had nothing to do with my ground tackle equipment which include a huge Maxwell HWC2200 powered by 24VDC along with almost 200’ of 5/8HT chain. My windlass alone cost over $3000!!!! How much did you spend for yours....if you even have one!

Delta at the time of purchase had excellent claims for its holding ability. My first delta purchase was a 50 pound thing which plowed giving me thought that the anchor was too light. I followed that purchase with an 88 pound Delta which performed the same as the lighter one.

Then I knew I had the wrong anchor. As soon as the 88 Delta failed, I ordered an 80 pound Manson Supreme.....and I am NOT in love with that anchor either. Again I ventured down anchor avenue and purchased a Fortress FX55 which has sat on my boat in its original shipping container for the last few years. This year I may replace the Manson with it.

So my suggestion, don’t preach to others about not being able to adequately afford using their boat.

[Montanan]

So let's summarize the situation when the drama initiated: Up a creek with an anchor. Well that is better than up a creek without an anchor.

A shift in wind direction upsets the established holding of your anchor. If the anchor does not reset you are off to the races. Sometimes they just don't reset properly and guess what, that sometime usually is when the wind blows hardest.

Your action of providing engine power to aid in staying in position is the appropriate action given the circumstance. Or you could have just cut anchor and moved to more sheltered or open water instead of trying to ride out the blow after all you are skippering a vessel not a pier it is intended to move and to move underwind power assuming it is a sailing ship.

I distrust anchoring in mud because I equate the situation to be similar to building on such substrate, mud makes for a fundamentally limited foundation. But then mud is what one expects in river and creek beds so what choice do you have other than being prepared for your anchor to not hold and deal with the consequences thereof.

Sounds like the wind was favorable to drag you down creek and not across creek and so long as there isn't things to bump into when dragging leeward it becomes a slow scenic ride. How's that song go? Oh yea,

Slow ride, take it easy
Slow ride, take it easy
Our boat's in the mood
The rhythm is right
Move to the music
We can roll all night
Oh slow ride
Oh slow ride, take it easy
Slow ride, take it easy
Slow down, go down, got to get your anchor holdin' one more time
Hold me, roll me, slow ridin' anchor, not holding so fine
Woo

Adapted from Foghat

There is the reassurance of draggin' in mud bottom creeks in that if your drag one usually just gets the keel blown into the mud of shallower waters. There being far worse things than getting stuck in the mud.

And if you are in an anchorage with other boats draggin' do realize that it is just one of nature's "finer pleasures" and a unique method of gettin' you to know your neighbors. If you are the one draggin' when you come alongside just ask if they have any Grey Poupon and if it is your neighbor's boat that is draggin' down onto you be so kind as to go down to your galley and bring up a jar so as to share your Grey Poupon with them as they pass by.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmannAYiwh0

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Sojourner

Haha yes, but my point (and poor analogies) I think still stand: using yesterday's old technology and logic that once was as good as we could do today, when there are a number of options that are indisputably better/safer, is irresponsible in my view when it comes to anchors. Cheap out on your rigging, or antifoul, or quality of libations aboard and no one gets hurt but you. Cheap out on your anchor, and yes, people who are not on your boat can have their day thoroughly ruined through no fault of their own.

Also, let me add sincerely you're one of my very favorite posters on here! Such a wealth of knowledge... I really should listen to you. But on this, I'm not gonna I very much hope our paths cross one day, and when they do, I'll be hanging of a giant rocna so you can sleep easy

Fair winds!

First, thanks for the kind words. I'll try to live up to them.

But I kinda think that you are making the wrong judgement about plow anchors. If of adequate size, once you get them dug in they have adequate holding power. Note "adequate size"...

Point in support: close friends (and fellow CFers) have a heavy, high windage 40 foot cutter. They use an 80 lb genuine CQR on 10 mm chain. Have been full time cruisers for around 20 years, voyaging around Oz, the South Pacific Islands and all the way to Alaska and back. They do not drag... and I surely do not think them irresponsible for continuing their well honed practices.

So, again, one's expertise is a big factor in anchoring success. I agree that use of a modern anchor reduces the expertise required (and being fallible myself, I made the change long ago), but the accusation of irresponsibility is better aimed at those who don't learn HOW to anchor than at those who do so successfully, no matter what sort of iron mongery lives and the end of their chain.

And I too relish the thought of our wakes crossing, so getcha selves out to the Pacific!

Jim

[DeepFrz]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

I'm not a big fan of plow anchors, but I used one for years and anchored hundreds of times. Sometimes hard to get stuck in, but once in, it held OK.

Point is, thousands of boats anchored hundreds of thousands of times on plows and didn't drag. Your blanket condemnation is a bit too much for my taste, and there are plenty of folks still successfully cruising with CQRs and their brethren.

I moved on years ago, and found a Bruce to be more forgiving and then a Manson Supreme to be better yet. But to get into a swivet if someone anchors up ahead of you on a CQR is silly. I worry far more about their competence than the type of anchor they choose.

So, now my rant mode is off and I hope the coffee was good!

Jim

This sounds like the Admiral who today in the Senate hearings proclaimed that there are 280 ships out there that haven't collided. The Senator was not impressed.

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

First, thanks for the kind words. I'll try to live up to them.



But I kinda think that you are making the wrong judgement about plow anchors. If of adequate size, once you get them dug in they have adequate holding power. Note "adequate size"...



Point in support: close friends (and fellow CFers) have a heavy, high windage 40 foot cutter. They use an 80 lb genuine CQR on 10 mm chain. Have been full time cruisers for around 20 years, voyaging around Oz, the South Pacific Islands and all the way to Alaska and back. They do not drag... and I surely do not think them irresponsible for continuing their well honed practices.



So, again, one's expertise is a big factor in anchoring success. I agree that use of a modern anchor reduces the expertise required (and being fallible myself, I made the change long ago), but the accusation of irresponsibility is better aimed at those who don't learn HOW to anchor than at those who do so successfully, no matter what sort of iron mongery lives and the end of their chain.



And I too relish the thought of our wakes crossing, so getcha selves out to the Pacific!



Jim

Well having a CQR that is almost double the weight (80 lbs. vs. 45 lbs.) of the recommended size for their boat has something to do with their success I suspect.

I had a 45 lb. CQR on my heavy 40’ cutter and it dragged a number of times despite good technique. It never broke entirely free but it did drag and that was enough to prompt me to replace it with a 44 lb. Rocna that I got used for a good price. That never budged but I replaced it with a 55 lb. when I came across a deal I could not pass up. I consider it money well spent.

The new gen anchors can actually *promote* bad anchoring practices due to their reliability. I sometimes anchor with 3:1 scope in tight places and I *never ever* would have done that with my CQR.

[Sojourner]

Originally Posted by foggysail

You are being presumptuous! Cost had nothing to do with my ground tackle equipment which include a huge Maxwell HWC2200 powered by 24VDC along with almost 200’ of 5/8HT chain. My windlass alone cost over $3000!!!! How much did you spend for yours....if you even have one!

Delta at the time of purchase had excellent claims for its holding ability. My first delta purchase was a 50 pound thing which plowed giving me thought that the anchor was too light. I followed that purchase with an 88 pound Delta which performed the same as the lighter one.

Then I knew I had the wrong anchor. As soon as the 88 Delta failed, I ordered an 80 pound Manson Supreme.....and I am NOT in love with that anchor either. Again I ventured down anchor avenue and purchased a Fortress FX55 which has sat on my boat in its original shipping container for the last few years. This year I may replace the Manson with it.

So my suggestion, don’t preach to others about not being able to adequately afford using their boat.

1) Why in the living $h!t do you have a windlass of that size on a 40 footer?? I have a lofrans tigres on my 53 footer, hauling 33kilos of rocna on 400 feet of 10mm chain, and is more than plenty for such a nice sized boat as mine
2) Giant windlass clearly did you no good since you dragged with BOTH your plows, even after upsizing.
3) You proved my point by deep-sixing the plows going for new gen. You didn't have the wrong anchor for your boat--it IS a wrong anchor period. If you can't stop dragging an 80 pound anchor on a 40 foot boat, then my case is closed. Although I did forget about Fortress if you mainly anchor in sand/mud or kedge. They are great anchors for that obvs, and I have a big boy hanging off my stern. But in other bottoms, they are far from the best.
4) And in conclusion, I still stand by my point: If you buy a sports car and cannot afford good, new tires to match, you're irresponsible. It's not safe for you, or for others. You overspent. If you buy a boat of any price, and cannot afford 600-1000 bucks on critical safety gear for it, then you overspent. Period. You don't have to be rich (god knows I'm not), you just have to have your priorities in order.
5) Oh, and Jim, yes yes yes!! Just give us a few more years, we're still swirling around the Med, but we're on our way!!

[foggysail]

Originally Posted by Sojourner

1) Why in the living $h!t do you have a windlass of that size on a 40 footer?? I have a lofrans tigres on my 53 footer, hauling 33kilos of rocna on 400 feet of 10mm chain, and is more than plenty for such a nice sized boat as mine
2) Giant windlass clearly did you no good since you dragged with BOTH your plows, even after upsizing.
3) You proved my point by deep-sixing the plows going for new gen. You didn't have the wrong anchor for your boat--it IS a wrong anchor period. If you can't stop dragging an 80 pound anchor on a 40 foot boat, then my case is closed. Although I did forget about Fortress if you mainly anchor in sand/mud or kedge. They are great anchors for that obvs, and I have a big boy hanging off my stern. But in other bottoms, they are far from the best.
4) And in conclusion, I still stand by my point: If you buy a sports car and cannot afford good, new tires to match, you're irresponsible. It's not safe for you, or for others. You overspent. If you buy a boat of any price, and cannot afford 600-1000 bucks on critical safety gear for it, then you overspent. Period. You don't have to be rich (god knows I'm not), you just have to have your priorities in order.
5) Oh, and Jim, yes yes yes!! Just give us a few more years, we're still swirling around the Med, but we're on our way!!

GEES!!!! You bitched that others should not boat if they cannot afford good anchors then you bitch about others spending too much for piece parts of their anchor system. Later you even preach that my overkill windlass did me no good because my anchor still dragged. That is right up there with recommending changing tires because the engine won’t start. Do you have a sports car to go with your toy windlass?