Want to fly a cruising shute

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by jackdale

The ATN tacker can also be blown easily.

The beauty of the martin breaker is that it can be released from the cockpit. Just ease the tack line until the snap shackle trips. Most commonly used when the tack is out on a prod, out of easy reach.

[Snowpetrel]

Here is a good example of a similar, slightly more complex version of a martin breaker used on a symetrical kite. Also a great writeup of how to run a spinnaker short handed

http://www.pineapplesails.com/articl...k/downwind.htm

Sent from my SM-G930F using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[barnakiel]

Yes.

A remotely operated snap is a big plus when dousing by hand.

I do not have one and so I run a fine and strong line from the tack thru a block then onto a foredeck cleat. I just let this line run to douse the kite. Not as good as a remotely operated snap but works OK given our small kite size (some 400 sq ft only).

b.

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

The beauty of the martin breaker is that it can be released from the cockpit. Just ease the tack line until the snap shackle trips. Most commonly used when the tack is out on a prod, out of easy reach.

True. Almost all of chutes with which I work have dousing bags. The crew is on the foredeck.

I would only blow the tack in an emergency. I blanket the chute with the main until the chute depowers, bring down the dousing bag, lower the chute with the halyard while packing it, remove the sheets, take off the halyard, then the last thing I remove is the tack.

A chute on a sprit or no dousing bag would benefit from a martin breaker.

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by jackdale

True. Almost all of chutes with which I work have dousing bags. The crew is on the foredeck.

I take it the dousing bag is a kind of sock/snuffer?

Yeah I was thinking more short handed stuff, when being able to quickly dump all the power with the pull of a rope would be comforting. Mind you I could see it ending badly if you didn't get control of the clew before tripping the tack.

[markpierce]

How do you define shorthanded? At best two will struggle, but three is better. Also depends on the capability/existence of an autopilot.

[barnakiel]

If building from scratch, I would give a deep thought to the snuffer vs. furler alternative(-s).

Managing a kite with a snuffer is limited in a number of ways, e.g.:

- you will leave the cockpit,
- you will drop the sail,
- you are unlikely to snuff a zero,
- you need one snuffer per kite,
- you will end up with a big blob at the fine head of the kite, where the flow is most vulnerable,
- etc.

Some of the limitations do not exist, if you opt for a furler, e.g.:

- you can stay stay in the cockpit,
- you can leave the sail up,
- you can re-use the top and bottom units for hoisting another kite,
- you can furl a zero (and on the same furler that you used for G2),
- etc.

Not opting for any of the alternatives, as each boat is different and every sailors has their own style. At this point, in our own boat, I drop by hand and it IS easy.

Looking at how pro solo sailors do it, I would be tempted to think furlers are the default solo way.

Cheers,
b.

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Some of the limitations do not exist, if you opt for a furler, e.g.:

- you can stay stay in the cockpit,
- you can leave the sail up,
- you can re-use the top and bottom units for hoisting another kite,
- you can furl a zero (and on the same furler that you used for G2),
- etc.

Not opting for any of the alternatives, as each boat is different and every sailors has their own style. At this point, in our own boat, I drop by hand and it IS easy.

Looking at how pro solo sailors do it, I would be tempted to think furlers are the default solo way.

Cheers,
b.

Codes zeros are on their own furlers, with their own swivels and drums (usually single line). They are bagged with the swivel and drum attached.

Their 2:1 purchase halyards could be used for a chute, but the boats I have sailed with code zeros and chutes use separate halyards.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by jackdale

Codes zeros are on their own furlers, with their own swivels and drums (usually single line). They are bagged with the swivel and drum attached.

Their 2:1 purchase halyards could be used for a chute, but the boats I have sailed with code zeros and chutes use separate halyards.

Yes.

Note I said 'if building from scratch' - meaning no earlier equipment present. Building the fore sails wardrobe system from scratch. My way: keep the number of hardware items down.

What you suggest is sure OK if you have plenty of furlers lying around. Super nice when one can go this way.

Today there are at least two makes that can be used either as a Zero furler or else as topdown G furler.

BTW by a 'Zero' I do not mean just a Code Zero sail but also any kite'ish sail that can be pulled taut between the top and the drum. Like a G0 sail.

Here, from Selden:

" ... A Seldén CX drum and halyard swivel for thimbles are used both for the Code 0 sail and an additional gennaker. Connect the sail suitable for the prevailing conditions to the drum and to the halyard swivel and hoist the furled sail using the Code 0 halyard...."


E.g.

A C0 sail:

Code 0

A G0 sail:

North Sails: G-Series Gennakers

A universal furler for C0, G0, or G(1,2) sails:

Code 0 and gennaker furling : Seldén Mast AB

Cheers,
b.

[Jim Cate]

There is a significant difference between the cost of a snuffer and a furler... and if the budget is limited, making your own snuffer is not all that hard.

Jim

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by jackdale

The ATN tacker can also be blown easily.

That one (shackle type) can be a bit of a knuckle buster when tripped under load, as the pivoting part of the shackle comes backwards with quite a bit of force when tripped. So watch yourself.

An alternative, is to use a Sparcraft, trigger release type shackle. And either use a fid to trip it, or run a tripping line through the shackle, & release it remotely if you like.
Though if you do rig a remote tripping line, make sure there's plenty of slack in the line, so that it doesn't accidentally get tripped if someone steps on the line, or when you raise the sail's tack & have forgotten to ease out more tripping-line line.

I say as much, as having the kite accidentally cut free from the tack at the wrong time can make quite a mess, & or, lead to a cascade of bad events type scenario.

Also, you're usually much better off if you get the sail under control, & more than likely, doused, prior to disconnecting any control lines from it. I mean it's a lot bigger sail than any of your genoas, & they're not exactly fun for most people, when it's time to insert or remove them from a headstay foil at sea. So why would you do so with a kite, unless you're racing?

Just my $0.02

[UNCIVILIZED]

By adding sprit, you gain a lot. The sail is further forward, with it's luff in air that's less subject to being blanketed or affected by bad air off of the main. And with the sail further forward, so goes it's center of effort (COE). Which makes the boat a lot easier to control; for you, or the AP. As the helm's more balanced.

Plus with the sailplan's COE further forward, when you get hit by a puff, or in higher windspeeds, you'll be less likely to round up or broach. This being due to having the COE further forward, which is exactly like adding a bowsprit to a boat which has a wicked case of permanent weather helm.

With the sail being out in clearer air, as well as it's leading edge being further forward, you can generally run deeper with the same A-sail, than if it were just tacked to the bow, or hooked on with an ATN Tacker (or similar). Which is a nice perk, & prevents you from needing to shift the sail onto a conventional pole. Although, at times it makes sense to do so, if the wind's extremely light, or you want to run deep.
Check your polars to see what makes sense for you.


As to socks vs. furlers. A sock runs about the same price as does the anti-torsion cable for a furler. And you need a dedicated cable for each sail that you run on a furler. Plus, it's tricky at times getting a kite to properly furl up. So you need to keep in practice, technique wise.
Also, you can't really adjust the height of the tack on a sail which is on a furler. So that cuts into the sail's efficiency a bit. Not a gigantic hit, but significant, especially with regard to what wind angles you want things optimized for. Be they deep or shallow.

If you go with a sock, it may make sense to get a kite which is say, 2' shorter than your hoist, & put a short pendant in the sock, for the head of the sail. This will stave off having the top portion of the sail get pinned inside of the sock, & not drawing well. Though adding such a pendant will make the sail have a bit less stability when pushed hard.


With the kite itself, unless you're really good at handling them, shy away from the lighter weight fabrics, for a couple of reasons.
- After a relatively short period, UV begins to eat kites/make the fabric lose strength. As, for example, when boats race from California to Hawaii, the cliche is to set a kite on day 3, & take it down when you get there. By which time it's toast, & gets binned.
- Heavier weight kites don't fly quite so well when it's light, but they're a lot more tolerant of mishandling without being damaged. Unlike a 0.5oz kite. Plus, there's more to them when it comes time to stitch on a patch or fix a tear, with the fabric being heavier & all.


PS: It's generally not the best of ideas to leave a furled kite up, unless you can get it to furl very tightly. As the wind will snag any loose sections & pull at them. Plus, if you're shifting to a jib with the kite still up there, it makes for some awfully bad air for the jib to have to operate in.

Also regardless of which route you choose, get some practice dropping the kite sans assistive devices. Yeah, they're more reliable now, but... Learning to drop such a sail without them, for the first time, once things have already gone sideways, isn't the wisest of plans.
As such sails, uncontrolled/poorly controlled, are big enough to endanger; the crew, the rig, & or, the boat.

[barnakiel]

Yep. A snuffer can be build at less than $100 per unit. This is about 10% of the cost of a decent kite furler.

As on any small boat the kite can be doused by hand, I think a snuffer is the choice in a bigger boat outfitted to a smaller budget.

In any case, we are lucky to have all the choices.

b.