Stealth mode - New Generation Ropes

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

I have tried using a sleeve of polyester chafe guard. That was a failure, as I was unable to secure it well at the ends. It ended up riding up and simply bunching and restricting movement. I eventually took it off. Lines used by big ships have protection at the ends of any UHMWPE lines. Thinwater, have you dissected any of these to work out construction? I have not explored the options well yet.

Two basic techniques

Tuck/sew - example

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thyLfoOHe-4

Chinese finger - example https://www.samsonrope.com/docs/defa...rsn=f3566b8d_2

commercial/big ship size lines would mostly use the first

many sorts of variations and combinations of the two techniques are possible.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Steve_C

So this is a screenshot of a recently posted "La Vagabond" YouTube video. It is an Outremer 45

I zoomed in to get a better look, it appears to be synthetic Dyneema or equivalent. The attachment to the hull looks like a REALLY tight bend. Is this a problem? potential point of failure? or are the loads low enough not to matter?

a. Dyneema looses about 1/2 of its strength in a 1:1 bend.
b. It only needs 1/2 its strength, because it is a loop, and each leg only carries 1/2 the load.


This is fine. It is full strength.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by thinwater

No I have not. But it's really easy to splice a polyester cover over Dyneema single braid. I've done this many times, where lines pass through jammers.

............

To prevent sliding/bunching, soak with Spinlock Rp25 and/or try some lock stitching. If you are OK with the line getting a little stiff, Yale Maxijacket will increase the wear of polyester 5-10 times. Really. I didn't believe it either, at all, until I tested it, lab and field. Rope and Knot sells small bottles.

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

Two basic techniques

Tuck/sew - example ........

Chinese finger - example https://www.samsonrope.com/docs/defa...rsn=f3566b8d_2

commercial/big ship size lines would mostly use the first

many sorts of variations and combinations of the two techniques are possible.

Many thanks Thinwater and Breaking Waves.

Thinwater, Maxijacket info is very useful.

Breaking Waves, the first technique you attached a video link to is not one I had seen before. This is what I will need to use in some way, as a simple bury of the cover in the single braid won’t be possible, as some of the area that needs chafe protection already has the tail of the eye splice buried in it.

The sewing in of the frayed ends of the cover (or perhaps tucking in, as I do with 12 strand Tiptoe) is also exactly what I think will work for chafe protection on the Acera strop that goes over the bow. After a year this is showing a significant amount of wear and I would like to add a sleeve to the new strop I make. Same problem there is that the tails are buried in the portion needing protection, so a simple bury of the cover won’t work.

The two images below from Timms and Southern Ropes show how chafe protection is being added to UHMWPE. This is the technique I am trying to figure out. The simple sewing I did on the Acera strop that went over the bow did not hold.

SWL

[real_goat]

Rope protection

https://linysyntetyczne.pl/rope-protection

Their prices for UHWMPE ropes are also alright.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by real_goat

Rope protection

https://linysyntetyczne.pl/rope-protection

Their prices for UHWMPE ropes are also alright.

Thanks for the link.
I just checked out the website. They will only sell the cover if the rope is purchased. Also, the sleeves seem to come in only one diameter, which is suitable for rope up to 36mm in diameter. That would probably make the sleeves about 120 mm in circumference, 60 mm in their flattened state.

Unfortunately, it’s way too big for my needs. The strop for our snubber is made from 14 mm Acera, which means the diameter when the tail is buried is not much more than 19.8 mm. So maybe in the flattened state the sleeve needs to be about 35-40 mm wide.

The bridle of the series drogue is 12 mm diameter Acera.

Our mooring lines are 20mm Tiptoe 12, but I am cow hitching loops made from 8 mm Stealth to these to decrease the bulk at the bollard and so nothing wide is needed there.


In smaller sizes (eg if soft shackles need protection), I guess the best thing is just use the cover of double braid poly and replace this bit as it wears?

SWL

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by real_goat

Rope protection

https://linysyntetyczne.pl/rope-protection

Their prices for UHWMPE ropes are also alright.

The prices for Dyneema are excellent! Dramatically less than available online ftom yachting chandleries.

Very useful link. Thanks.

SWL

[Fi2010]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

OK. You seem to believe that I am unjustified in my observation that you have made online comments that portray the JSD in a bad light. I could go through them and list them to make the point, but I won't.... unless you want me to.

All I asked was what evidence do you have that the parting of the rode on Goodall's JSD was caused by shock loading, given that the essential design feature of the JSD is that it hangs down in the water and therefore has a progressive increase in load in response to the boat/wave interaction, therefore the opposite of shock loading. Therefore your statement did not make sense to me. It's a simple question, that you did not really address.

I do value the testing you've done on constant rode tension, it is a very valuable contribution & particularly wrt parachute anchoring on stretchy nylon rode where shock loading after the recoil is a very real problem. FYI I have incorporated that into our para anchor setup.

And yes, I certainly would like to read Coast Guard reports on the Shark used under very adverse conditions, i.e. large fully developed seas with breaking waves, or coastal shallower waters with large and very steep braking waves. I again looked under the Shark tab on your website and found no USCG or Navy reports on the Shark. What are you referring to? Am I not looking in the right place?

Also, what information is omitted by "JSD promotors" that we should know about? I trust you're not referring to John over at Morgans Cloud? Because as a recent member of that site, I find him to be as straight a shooter as there is, and his writings on safety matters make perfect sense, to me anyway.

If you cherry pick information from Cruisers Forum you can portray any message you like. You can make a person or company look bad or good dependent on your agenda.

We explained that we accept trade-ins and resell JSD drogues in an earlier post. We do point out the plusses and minuses of different equipment in our consumer tests, but the fact is all drogues work; they just work in different ways. We believe it’s important sailors have reliable information in making equipment choices.

By “bad light”, maybe you’re referring to our company exposing advertorials located on the forums and in publications where sailors don’t get unbiased information. A lot of these advertorials involve the JSD.

Case in point and we’re going to use the JSD as an example. An article in Yachting World a few years ago appeared to be an advertorial designed to sell the JSD. This inspired us to write a setting the record straight article fact checked by the U.S. Coast Guard.

We exposed how Yachting World’s article only mentioned JSD positives, while primarily focusing on the negatives of competing equipment. Yachting World used the 1987 CG report to claim the JSD tested best by the CG and competing products had “inherent dangers”. Yachting World’s statements were proven inaccurate, as the report said, all drogues work and included the information that the JSD did not test the best. This was verified by the CG factcheck.

Yachting World continued their promotion by adding two additional pages of positive JSD testimonials. Positive testimonials from the competition were not printed.

Why Yachting World didn’t at least cite Lin and Larry Pardeys’ Storm Tactics book, Victor Shane’s DDD book, and/ or Zack Smith’s instruction and test videos on YouTube is a mystery. The lack of non-partisan reporting often indicates that an article is an advertorial. Advertorials are a trick used by writers to make the consumer think her or she is reading facts when they are really reading advertisements.

Ironically, Yachting World omitted the original JSD supplier working with Jordon to sell his JSD. Instead, Yachting World promoted only one company in their article, a JSD supplier from the UK. Standard practice in journalism is to list several companies, including competing companies.

Much of the same advertorial activity in various levels occurs on the forums. To balance things out we fill in the gaps when we post. The goal is to publish honest information about the pros and cons of every device, including the types of rigging setups to consider for deployment. This can help sailors determine what might work best for them. We hope our details also provide some ideas on how to solve problems if something happens during the deployment process.

Morgan’s Cloud is our competitor, but that doesn’t devalue any safety tips you find useful.

You’re not going to find all of the reports on our website since it’s in need of a serious update. We are working on that. You’ll have to key in the correct words to find them online or contact the organizations mentioned. The NASA report is detailed. They tested drogues and sea anchors.

[mikedefieslife]

Originally Posted by real_goat

Rope protection

https://linysyntetyczne.pl/rope-protection

Their prices for UHWMPE ropes are also alright.

Oooh thanks for that link. Just what I was looking for. Will have to put in an order for some dyneema whilst I still have an address.

[thinwater]

This report?
http://para-anchor.com/reports/tech.report.152.nasa.pdf

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

The two images below from Timms and Southern Ropes show how chafe protection is being added to UHMWPE. This is the technique I am trying to figure out.

here is a pic of a samson chafe guard with contrasting colors so you can clearly see how it is using the 'tuck' approach.

samson chafe.jpg Views: 242 Size: 175.5 KB ID: 190749" style="margin: 2px" />

Samson's products are likely too big for your applications. But there are dyneema sleeves for yachting size lines from the usual suspects - like NER https://www.neropes.com/products/gra...-chafe-sleeve/

There are non-woven chafe options. I guess you will know that using leather is the traditional chafe material. And more modern urethane sleeves for example: http://www.yalecordage.com/download_file/force/316/561.

[Fi2010]

Originally Posted by thinwater

This report?
http://para-anchor.com/reports/tech.report.152.nasa.pdf

The report you listed was written by Zack. NASA put together a separate report.

[Fi2010]

Drew,


How on earth did you acquire our original report? The pdf version of 152 located on our current website doesn't list the name of the space capsule. Your link does list the capsule's name. So wondering if our website has a glitch. We know sometimes a web page can revert back to an older version. Websites are funny like that. Unless you went to a site which stores past websites. That makes more sense.

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

here is a pic of a samson chafe guard with contrasting colors so you can clearly see how it is using the 'tuck' approach.

Attachment 190749

Samson's products are likely too big for your applications. But there are dyneema sleeves for yachting size lines from the usual suspects - like NER https://www.neropes.com/products/gra...-chafe-sleeve/

There are non-woven chafe options. I guess you will know that using leather is the traditional chafe material. And more modern urethane sleeves for example: http://www.yalecordage.com/download_file/force/316/561.

That is extremely helpful. Thank you.

That Samson photo shows the type of tucks I was thinking of when I saw your earlier video where the frayed ends were stitched. That is what I will do .

I have just found a European maker of dyneema sleeves: Gottifredi Maffioli. They are available online through Upffront.com, a German company:
https://info.upffront.com/blog/dynee...-your-tool-kit

Speaking of leather, the larger TyeTec blocks on board came with sleeves of leather as chafe guard. The function well and look cool, but this is only really practical for short lengths. Also, they are loose, not secured, and although this works when they bend 180° in use, for straight sections they would slide about.

SWL

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass

Hi Dockhead
The “interlocking loops” you used is just a cow hitch.
The final “dressing” is different when one line is cow hitched to another line rather than a curved object, but the underlying knot is identical.

SWL

I don't think this is right. Maybe they are called the same, but how can they be the same knot? The difference is more than dressing. In one case, you pass each tail through the other piece's eye; in the the other case, you pass one tail through the eye of the same piece, and the other piece is static. This is not indeed a question of dressing, is it? The second case -- what I call a cow hitch -- has one eye wrapped tightly around a single diameter of the rope in the eye of the other piece. In the first case, which I have been calling "interlocking eyes", for lack of a better term, each eye is symmetrically wrapped around BOTH legs of the eye of the other piece. How can this be the "same knot"?



But you are the Knot Queen (we won't mention the whips and chains ), so I would love to hear how I'm wrong!

[Seaworthy Lass]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I don't think this is right. Maybe they are called the same, but how can they be the same knot? The difference is more than dressing. In one case, you pass each tail through the other piece's eye; in the the other case, you pass one tail through the eye of the same piece, and the other piece is static. This is not indeed a question of dressing, is it? The second case -- what I call a cow hitch -- has one eye wrapped tightly around a single diameter of the rope in the eye of the other piece. In the first case, which I have been calling "interlocking eyes", for lack of a better term, each eye is symmetrically wrapped around BOTH legs of the eye of the other piece. How can this be the "same knot"?



But you are the Knot Queen (we won't mention the whips and chains ), so I would love to hear how I'm wrong!

Try trying a cow hitch with one eye onto another eye and you will see the result is identical to your “interlocking loops”.

The Knot Mistress