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Old 22-08-2015, 13:35   #16
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Re: Rigging rust pics #2--your thoughts

I am not seeing anything alarming in the shots. How old is the rigging? I don't see any cracks in the swaging which would be my main concern.
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Old 22-08-2015, 16:27   #17
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Re: Rigging rust pics #2--your thoughts

That's not a good spot for rust. Use an abrasive pad and some polish to remove the rust so that you can have a look at the metal. Look especially for any cracks in the swage fitting, very common. At the minimum, I would take a length of flexible wire and run it through the opening above the rusted area then overlap the wire below the rusted area securing with at least 3 cable clamps. Crank them down good and tight or they can slip. The corrosion and cracking is usually worse at the bottom ends of the rigging, get out your polish and check all of those as well. In my experience stainless rigging failure occur suddenly and the cracks can be hard to see. Best to replace that rigging soon as you can. James
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Originally Posted by esarratt View Post
Here is one more pic for perspective. The stay in question is the lower rusted one.
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Old 22-08-2015, 17:16   #18
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Re: Rigging rust pics #2--your thoughts

There's no real way to know, but that doesn't look that uncommon for many boats out sailing.
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Old 22-08-2015, 19:09   #19
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Re: Rigging rust pics #2--your thoughts

My inexpert thought about the rust is that it may have been caused by tape wrapped around the swage and the wire for some reason. Maybe to protect crew from scratches or something like that.

I'm only thinking that because there is rust on both the wire and the top of the swage that is about the width of sticky tape. Tape on SS will retain moisture and
exclude oxygen which creates a protective layer on SS. Same as SS bolts rust if they pass through damp wood. The other wire looks OK and it may not have been taped.

My thought is that you need to replace it anyway so do it at the earliest opportunity.

If my tape theory; purely guessing, is correct, did you only just discover the rust after removing some tape?? If so its probably been like that for some time and if you don't push things it may be ok for a while longer.

It's a cost thing I know but I wouldn't want to replace just one wire. I'd try to do the lot.
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Old 22-08-2015, 19:44   #20
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Re: Rigging rust pics #2--your thoughts

IMVHO:

- if the rigging is new: clean,
- if the rigging is old, replace,

Testing method by hand: grab with both hands about 1 ft apart one hand on the fitting the other on the wire. Shape into say 90 degs curve now turn (spin) the wire under strain. Repeat. Has any strand popped out?

On my boat (wires tested/replaced/meticulously) the only wires that ever went were the lowers. They get shaken most and 19 wire SS hates being shaken.

Hope this helps an inch.

b.
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Old 22-08-2015, 20:16   #21
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Re: Rigging rust pics #2--your thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrahamHO View Post
My inexpert thought about the rust is that it may have been caused by tape wrapped around the swage and the wire for some reason. Maybe to protect crew from scratches or something like that.

I'm only thinking that because there is rust on both the wire and the top of the swage that is about the width of sticky tape. Tape on SS will retain moisture and
exclude oxygen which creates a protective layer on SS. Same as SS bolts rust if they pass through damp wood. The other wire looks OK and it may not have been taped.

My thought is that you need to replace it anyway so do it at the earliest opportunity.

If my tape theory; purely guessing, is correct, did you only just discover the rust after removing some tape?? If so its probably been like that for some time and if you don't push things it may be ok for a while longer.

It's a cost thing I know but I wouldn't want to replace just one wire. I'd try to do the lot.
What GrahamHO said.

Stainless is stain-less because it quickly reacts with the oxygen in its surroundings, forming an oxide coating that protects against further corrosion. If there is anything that prevents that barrier from forming, then corrosion can get inside and ruin an outwardly perfectly good part.

Some will attribute this to "cheap (choose country of origin) parts", when the problem was actually caused by a misunderstanding of the materials used.
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Old 23-08-2015, 02:06   #22
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Re: Rigging rust pics #2--your thoughts

Thats what you see...whats it like where you cant. I would change it.
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Old 23-08-2015, 08:03   #23
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Re: Rigging rust pics #2--your thoughts

A temporary repair or reinforcement similar to other suggestions could be:-

Get about 20" of the same type of wire as the rigging. Have an eye spliced into the end. Put a SS ring in the bottom of the existing rigging screw in the fork above the cotter pin. Clamp the now shortened (by the length of wire the eye consumes to around 12") wire to the existing rigging well above the rusty swage using several of those useful little SS U bolt clamps chandlery shops and hardware sell. You might need the largest size.

Then get some 4 mm spectra. Tie one end to the top eye with a bowline and go round and round between the eye and SS ring pulling the lashing tighter and tighter with each turn. Then after around 6 turns start going around that lashing for its length and finish with 2 or 3 hitches. You might use a metre of 4mm spectra so you can keep easily pulling it tight as you go. You could optionally put another ring in the eye ( hard eye or soft) and lash between the 2 rings. That will give you more room.

That will last you for a few years and will take most of the strain off the rusty section.

Racing yachts are now often using spectra type rigging instead of wire to save weight aloft. Often they use a lashing as I've suggested instead of a rigging screw. I use a similar lashing between an eye in wire check stays and an eye bolt on my chain plates. Those lower check stay takes a lot of load, probably more than your shrouds.

The 8' dinghy I learned to sail on 66 years ago used lashings to tension the rigging as did the next 12' one and most small yachts then. Sailing ships used lashings as rigging screws hadn't been invented.

You could even shorten your rusty wire with a swaged eye and throw away your rigging screws and substitute a lashing if you wanted to but I'm not specially recommending that.
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Old 23-08-2015, 08:38   #24
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Re: Rigging rust pics #2--your thoughts

Looking at all the photos it now seems to me the problem is at the mast end of the wire. My lashing suggestion still applies.

Or you could end for end the wire putting the existing rigging screw at the top; mast end and another longer rigging screw at the new bottom end cutting off the rusty bit which is now at the bottom. A rigging screw should be longer than the swage and will replace the rusty bit. The remainder of the wire that is not rusty looks fine.

Or combinations of my suggestions. You can cut rigging wire by taping the spot to be cut and use a cold chisel and a big hammer. Then you can loop it and swage or not so pretty unbolt it to its self forming an eye. Then with the old rigging screw now at the top. You could lash the bottom.
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Old 23-08-2015, 21:11   #25
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Re: Rigging rust pics #2--your thoughts

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Originally Posted by Don C L View Post
I am not seeing anything alarming in the shots. How old is the rigging? I don't see any cracks in the swaging which would be my main concern.
OK. Before you say "replace it all", the boat has been in dry storage in a garage for 24 years. It was literally a barn find.

The boat was in working condition when stored. Then the PO got busy with life and never got back into sailing (he bought a power boat and had kids)

The rigging is from 1983, so that makes it 32 years old.

I'm considering a Sta-Lok long eye for that one swage terminal before sailing South (2 days sail to her new home then I go back to work for awhile). Then slowly, when I get the money, upgrading all the rigging.

Honestly, I'm broke. I have gone through about $15,000 in the last month between buying the boat and repairing the boat to get it back in the water.

I need to get the boat out of the POs driveway and to a place that is free (my own land!) The PO has been very kind and let me refit at his home. Replacing all the rigging will have to wait.
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Old 23-08-2015, 22:47   #26
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Re: Rigging rust pics #2--your thoughts

Quote:
Originally Posted by esarratt View Post
OK. Before you say "replace it all", the boat has been in dry storage in a garage for 24 years. It was literally a barn find.

The boat was in working condition when stored. Then the PO got busy with life and never got back into sailing (he bought a power boat and had kids)

The rigging is from 1983, so that makes it 32 years old.

I'm considering a Sta-Lok long eye for that one swage terminal before sailing South (2 days sail to her new home then I go back to work for awhile). Then slowly, when I get the money, upgrading all the rigging.

Honestly, I'm broke. I have gone through about $15,000 in the last month between buying the boat and repairing the boat to get it back in the water.

I need to get the boat out of the POs driveway and to a place that is free (my own land!) The PO has been very kind and let me refit at his home. Replacing all the rigging will have to wait.

Not sure why you are so defensive, and not not even considering replacement after having asked for opinions.

Looking at your pics it appears that the primary problem is only at the top of one of the lower shrouds. Is it possible (are the ends the same?) to turn it around so you can visually inspect while sailing (every hour or so)? In my experience when wire breaks if you see a broken strand (as other have mentioned) then it is literally going to fail imminently, tack if it is on the loaded side, and drop sails.

Also I suspect that losing one of two lowers on a 24' boat (especially one as robust looking as the pics) is not going to bring the rig down, unless you are in some serious weather, which you should be able to avoid (or at least not have sails up) in the ICW.




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Old 23-08-2015, 23:22   #27
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Re: Rigging rust pics #2--your thoughts

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Not sure why you are so defensive, and not not even considering replacement after having asked for opinions.
I wasn't; it just comes across that way. I am very matter of fact and forums and emails elude me as to graceful replies sometimes.

After I re-read my post I realized it came across as harsh and defensive, but it had been too long and I was unable to edit.

I have been taking in and considering everything everyone has been saying. This has been very useful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jman View Post
Looking at your pics it appears that the primary problem is only at the top of one of the lower shrouds.
Yep. That is the only bad one that I see. I'm leaning toward the camp that the little bit of rust I have found on the other swages is normal. It is odd that only one rusted bad like that.

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Is it possible (are the ends the same?) to turn it around so you can visually inspect while sailing (every hour or so)?
Unfortunately, no. The other ends are bronze connectors for a barrel terminal, but that is a good idea.

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In my experience when wire breaks if you see a broken strand (as other have mentioned) then it is literally going to fail imminently, tack if it is on the loaded side, and drop sails.
Yep. That is the plan.
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Old 23-08-2015, 23:24   #28
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Re: Rigging rust pics #2--your thoughts

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Also I suspect that losing one of two lowers on a 24' boat (especially one as robust looking as the pics) is not going to bring the rig down, unless you are in some serious weather, which you should be able to avoid (or at least not have sails up) in the ICW.
Yeah, that was sort of my thinking too. Good point on dropping the sails if the weather pics up. The simplest of things are the solution. Thanks.
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Old 23-08-2015, 23:42   #29
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Re: Rigging rust pics #2--your thoughts

My earlier post came across as harsh (can't edit it now). Sorry, it wasn't meant to be--many thanks for the comments and help.
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Old 25-09-2015, 18:12   #30
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Re: Rigging rust pics #2--your thoughts

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Tips to found loose strands at the swage end or broken strands at the swage end,
1 take the tip of small flat screwdriver, try to squeeze the tip between the strands at the swage end, if you are able to squeeze the tip and feel loose strands then the wire is toasted .
2 take a plier, grab the wire at the swage end , turn the wire sideways , if a strand is broken you can see it pooping loose from the core , wire toasted.


Rust at the bottom terminals are quite normal unless you spend day by day cleaning the rigging... aka polish or acid wash.
Thanks for the knowledge.
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