Replacing genoa with Code Zero

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Polux

I guess it has much to do with the boat you sail and the places you sail. I have a 135% genoa and a 110% genoa. If I sail on places where 20K winds are the norm than I use the 110% if I sail on places where the wind is average 15K or less I sail with the big genoa.

Two sails permanently mounted on the boat diminish the sail performance, increase windage and diminish stability. With 3 is even worse. It is all a compromise. To you to chose the right one for your boat and the places (wind) where you will sail.

As my wife really hates strong winds I sailed this year with the 140% genoa. The 110% genoa is only better upwind with over 17k wind and much better over 20k and the sail to have with 30k or over.

With the big genoa I sail upwind faster than the wind till 5k of wind , wind speed with 6k and upwind is by far the most common sail position since with the boat making wind it will transforms a beam reach on upwind sailing.

I really don't have the need of a code 0 that I would have to take out probably with 9 or 10k of real wind. Only for racing, but that is on my boat. Each boat will be a different case.

Your right but what if your sailing long distance, say 1500nm and the weather changes during this passage.
The ability to change gear, rolling the code zero in and using the 100℅ is a great option. Your not going to pull the big genoa down and haul the smaller one up during passage.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by daletournier

Your right but what if your sailing long distance, say 1500nm and the weather changes during this passage.
The ability to change gear, rolling the code zero in and using the 100℅ is a great option. Your not going to pull the big genoa down and haul the smaller one up during passage.

If you do passages you can rig the smaller genoa (or a storm sail) on a removable stay with traditional clipping. In fact I have the boat rigged for that but only tried one time. In fact I don't need it on the med.

[hsi88]

Have a Catalina 30 that came with just one head sail, a 110 jib only a year old. Sails pretty well in all but the lightest wind. So I bought the Peak Sails Generator which is basically a cruising code zero with a Chutescoop for dousing. Its a 165% 1.5 oz sail designed specifically for light air which is pretty common on the Chesapeake. And it didn't cost a pile of money. Tacking is somewhat of a challenge, but it provides the light air power I was looking for over a wide range of sail points. And I didn't have to go to a large genoa, so the boat points well when I use the relatively flat 110. I like the combination.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by sailor_ed

My understanding of why a Genoa can cause a boat to try to turn to windward has to due to asymmetric water lines when heeled. This is obvious with a broad transom but can be an issue with other designs. In other words as the boat heels the profile it presents to the flow of water forces the bow to windward. And of course the rudder is less efficient which aggravates the issue. Boats with symmetric water lines are not as liable to show helm changes when heeled. The solution is to sail the boat flat by reefing the main which seems counterintuitive but in my experience can greatly help.

P. S. I am not an N. A. so you can have at me! :-)

Hi sailor ed, what you says feels right to me. Of course its not always possible to sail flat, thats why the problem ive experienced is specific to certain sea states that result in Sukha not being flat. The answer has been roll away the genoa and go under main alone. She sails well with just the main.
Anyway new Code Zero on the way from Mack sails , complete with furler...no eating out for a while..lol.

[Go Wildcats]

Just out of curiosity, What's the take on this?

"Ideally, every cruising boat should have three roller-furling sails up front, a common configuration for single- and double-handers on the round the world IMOCA 60s. One would be a big yankee on the headstay, say 140 per cent for light to moderate winds, which is either rolled up or all the way out and used primarily for reaching.

The second is a working jib on a forestay close behind the headstay of around 90 per cent for mid-range to fresh conditions upwind and reaching. This sail should be cut to furl partially and, again like the yankee, cut high-clewed for good visibility below the foot, but also to avoid having continually to change the lead when rolling in and out.

This combination takes you through most conditions up to the time you fully roll up the jib. Next, simply roll out your third sail, the staysail and, hey presto, you are under storm jib. (For more on this, don’t miss a feature on sail design later in this series.)"


Read more at Skip Novak’s Storm Sailing Techniques Part 3: storm sails

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by Go Wildcats

Just out of curiosity, What's the take on this?

"Ideally, every cruising boat should have three roller-furling sails up front, a common configuration for single- and double-handers on the round the world IMOCA 60s. One would be a big yankee on the headstay, say 140 per cent for light to moderate winds, which is either rolled up or all the way out and used primarily for reaching.

The second is a working jib on a forestay close behind the headstay of around 90 per cent for mid-range to fresh conditions upwind and reaching. This sail should be cut to furl partially and, again like the yankee, cut high-clewed for good visibility below the foot, but also to avoid having continually to change the lead when rolling in and out.

This combination takes you through most conditions up to the time you fully roll up the jib. Next, simply roll out your third sail, the staysail and, hey presto, you are under storm jib. (For more on this, don’t miss a feature on sail design later in this series.)"


Read more at Skip Novak’s Storm Sailing Techniques Part 3: storm sails

Too much windage with three furlers forward. Even on Skip Novaks Pelagic his skippers often went south without the genoa on it's foil to reduce windage, and even then she sailed about at anchor pretty bad. I helped to pull her off some rocks in antarctica after she had dragged anchor.

It's a great offshore rig, but a liability at anchor or when manuvering under engine. Better I think to have the big sail on a removable soft luff furler like a code zero.

[hellosailor]

Just one man's opinion for more casual sailing:

TOO MUCH STUFF. (RIP George Carlin.)

Too many furler$. Too many lines and blocks and cleats to control them. Too much stuff on the foredeck. Just TOO MUCH STUFF.

Oh, and I'm sure you'd want to pay a proper naval architect to design the proper installation, mounting points on the mast and foredeck, balance the center of effort for each sail plan...Little things like that.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

Too much windage with three furlers forward. Even on Skip Novaks Pelagic his skippers often went south without the genoa on it's foil to reduce windage, and even then she sailed about at anchor pretty bad. I helped to pull her off some rocks in antarctica after she had dragged anchor.

It's a great offshore rig, but a liability at anchor or when manuvering under engine. Better I think to have the big sail on a removable soft luff furler like a code zero.

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Just one man's opinion for more casual sailing:

Yes, & it's not just this. For every furler & furled sail that you have up, rolled or not, you lose 3-5 degrees of LPS. In addition to making the boat heel a lot more, more top heavy & prone to rolling. All of which bounce the rig & boat around more, & this serves to detach the airflow from the sails, thus further reducing their efficiency. Which is a big part of why racers are so conscious of weight aloft. It's SLOW & causes extra leeway too. Plus they cause a Lot of drag, & greatly interfere with the performance of any sails behind them due to this. As aerodynamically it's almost like adding an extra mast (tube) for each furled sail that you have up, & or, which is in front of the sail that you're using at that particular moment.

TOO MUCH STUFF. (RIP George Carlin.)

Too many furler$. Too many lines and blocks and cleats to control them. Too much stuff on the foredeck. Just TOO MUCH STUFF.

Oh, and I'm sure you'd want to pay a proper naval architect to design the proper installation, mounting points on the mast and foredeck, balance the center of effort for each sail plan...Little things like that.

Yes, it does get "interesting" tryng to properly lead all of the sheets for the various jibs & spinnakers, your preventers, & barberhaulers or twings. All while maintaining proper lead positions, & making sure that none of these many many lines wind up rubbing/chafing on the lifelines, standing rigging, or each other. Especially as the correct position for most of the above lines changes each time you alter course by any significant amount, or the wind shifts.

Not to mention that that amount of running rigging can get both expensive, & heavy, even if you're just using dacron doublebraid. Which you won't be for light air sails. Ditto many of their halyards. And then there's the costs of the furlers & other hardware needed to fly them... Plus the crew work needed to manage them, especially hoisting, dropping, & bringing them on deck/stowing them. And when reaching port; drying them out, inspecting them for damage, fixing same, & maintaining their furlers & hardware.

[Paul L]

It obviously depends a lot on where you plan to sail. I assume it is to continue passage making??
I prefer a Genoa on a furler and a solent staysail on a furler. We never partially furl the Genoa, so when it is in use it doesn't have the furled bag shape driving the boat sideways instead of forward. The staysail gets used 80+% of the time as it's so easy to roll out and in, drives the boat easily and can be partially furled with decent shape.
Light airs it's the Genoa and full main, typical offshore passages (for us) and it's the staysail with 0 to 2 reefs in the main.
The asym just doesn't come out of the bag often. It's work to set it and tear it down, it is a pain to sail when the winds are too light for the Genoa but the seas are too sloppy to keep it trimmed. A Code zero type sail on a furler would be nice, but it would be way lower on my budget list than having a staysail.

[mikedefieslife]

I see more and monos and catamarans with code zeros these days.

Normally no more than 30cm ahead of the genoa, on a continuous line.

Just curious. Why cant a code zero be built with normal bolt rope and attach on the genoa furling instead or its own expensive top down furling?

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by mikedefieslife

Just curious. Why cant a code zero be built with normal bolt rope and attach on the genoa furling instead or its own expensive top down furling?

More or less you can. Though then by definition it'll be more of a genoa, or reaching headsail. And such oversized jibs are one that I advocate folks having to hank onto a Solent Stay. As such sails are big enough to give you a fair bit of horsepower in light air, & by virtue of being attached to the boat by hanks, are a lot easier to deal with.

If/when you start putting them on primary furling gear, the amount of work necessary to use them rises by quite a bit. And other than on racing boats, most people aren't fans of changing out headsails that are on foils. Since when hoisting or dropping them, they're a Lot of sail to wrestle with, & are only connected to the boat by; the halyard, sheets, & a tack fitting.

You'll notice that on racing boats, when dropping a headsail that's on the headstay foil, there are a number of people involved with doing so; the bowman, 1 person on the halyard, 1-3 folks on the leeward rail forward of the mast, & usually a trimmer (on the sheet & clew end) also, so that the sail is well controlled as it's being dropped. And that there are enough bodies to properly fold it up, carry it to the hatch, & stow it below.

When hoisting such sails you don't need quite as many bodies, but usually it involves more people than a mom & pop type boat can field. Or even a boat with 3-4 crew, unless much of that crew is fairly expert. Although, obviously, these things depend on both the size of the boat, & the size of the sail(s). Plus what the wind is doing at the time.
And waking everyone up every time you want to do a sail change on a lightly crewed (3-5 people) gets old real fast. Enough so that unless the boat's crewed by professionals (or sailors near to that level), folks get tired enough so that safety issues can begin to arise. Not just in terms of dealing with the sails, but in making navigational errors, bad judgement calls, etc.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Go Wildcats

Just out of curiosity, What's the take on this?

"Ideally, every cruising boat should have three roller-furling sails up front..."

(...)

+++

Yes. If we are thinking of a sloop / cutter rig.

Note that most modern cruising boats lack fittings to fit such a combo.

PS Also pls note what kind of boats and style of sailing he had in mind. Marina queens and boats used locally do not need all that much of a sail wardrobe perhaps.

barnakiel

[Polux]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

+++

Yes. If we are thinking of a sloop / cutter rig.

Note that most modern cruising boats lack fittings to fit such a combo.

PS Also pls note what kind of boats and style of sailing he had in mind. Marina queens and boats used locally do not need all that much of a sail wardrobe perhaps.

barnakiel

That 3 head furling sails are the combination used on all top IMOCA boats:


That is so (so many sails) because you cannot reef this kind of furling sails (I don't know if the smaller one can be reefed, I suspect not). They want to have the right sail for the maximum performance and with an optimum shape and that means not reefed.

With a single sailor it is impossible to have the type of sails that you have to rig (without furler). Better sails in what regards efficiency (the ones used on the VOR) but that need a crew to handle and change them.

This setup has influenced cruising boats, namely voyage fast cruising boats that have also a mast more aft to have a smaller main and more space for headsails, like this one that I hope wins the European yacht of 2018:




I don't know if it makes sense to call to this configuration a cutter rig.

[daletournier]

Polux, what type of boat is the above?