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Old 12-02-2015, 14:50   #1
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Mast Splice below the partners???

Man...

I've been banging my head against a wall finding parts to rebuild my rig, and have fairly given up...

BRICK WALL - Obtaining Sparcraft Extrusions

I've found a deck stepped rig that checks all of the boxes EXCEPT...

Of course it's 7 ft short, as I had a keel stepped mast... Almost all masts are spliced over 40'... But... What say you about splicing 7 ft at the bottom???

Alternatively... I'm now considering putting in a compression post, beefing up anything that needs it, and converting to a deck stepped boat...

Thoughts any of you construction gurus or wannabees???
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Old 12-02-2015, 15:43   #2
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Re: Mast Splice below the partners???

Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyMdRSailor View Post
Man...

I've been banging my head against a wall finding parts to rebuild my rig, and have fairly given up...

BRICK WALL - Obtaining Sparcraft Extrusions

I've found a deck stepped rig that checks all of the boxes EXCEPT...

Of course it's 7 ft short, as I had a keel stepped mast... Almost all masts are spliced over 40'... But... What say you about splicing 7 ft at the bottom???

Alternatively... I'm now considering putting in a compression post, beefing up anything that needs it, and converting to a deck stepped boat...

Thoughts any of you construction gurus or wannabees???
You might try talking to the manufacturers to help you find a vendor. I used to do business with Aluminum Extrusion Service - International Extrusion Corporation, Texas years ago. Should be worth a call.
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Old 12-02-2015, 15:58   #3
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Re: Mast Splice below the partners???

My in mast furling mast was spliced at the bottom 5 feet or so when I had it custom rebuilt.. it was showing stress cracks at the window cut in the mast for the in furling. So we doubled it with extrusion, structural epoxy and aircraft style rivets.
But I have to ask... what parts do you really need for your original rig? Other than the main extrusion why not just put different parts on it?
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Old 12-02-2015, 16:07   #4
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Re: Mast Splice below the partners???

Splicing masts is not uncommon in larger rigs. We used to do that at the custom aluminum yard I worked at, when we still made our own rigs. We added an internal sleeve (external would work as well but will be visible). I think rule of thumb was 2X diameter above and below the splice. Make sure the ends of the sleeve have 'fingers' on them, not just cut off. The fingers should have nice, well radiused inside and outside features. Not welded as a HAZ is created, so joined with fasteners.
You should be able to find some good examples with the Al Gore created internet search.
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Old 12-02-2015, 16:54   #5
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Re: Mast Splice below the partners???

It's not quite the answer you're looking for, but you can always go with an extrusion from another maker... and then HAMMER Sparcraft online, via your link to Ann T. Cate's recommendations about such.

I mean honestly, if you've been putting in the level of effort which you describe for over 7 months, it's time to tell Sparcraft to go & F**k themselves. Especially as, even if you do get them to sell you a new extrusion, it's obvious that they're customer service regarding it will be utter Crap at best. Let alone should there be a major problem with it which needs sorting out.

Vendors should be seeking out buyers, not the other way around (SIC). Regardless of what commodity is being bought or sold. And good customer service both encourages repeat business, plus, word of mouth generated sales.
Something which is still Huge, even with the internet & it's effects on business.

One other thought is that now would also be a good time to add a few feet to your spar, so that you can bump up your light air, sail carrying ability. Most boats/folks tend to add around 5' or so, especially as an increase of any less than 3' really isn't worth it (you don't get much extra SA from a 2' taller mast). And it's sadly, all too common for most boats to be woefully under-canvased as they come from the factory.
Have a qualified guy run the numbers for you. But rarely is it anything even vaguely approaching an unsafe mod.

On the adding 7' to the bottom end thing. Were it me, I'd seriously try & avoid it. As a joint there, right about at deck level, is going to see a lot of load & stress - From: the deck blocking, the vang, said locale being a major loading area by design, etc.
It could likely be done, but... However, such is a conversation that you need to have with at least 2 different, independent, well qualified riggers.

One last thought/info-bit. It's common on racing boats (with aluminum masts) to sleeve them internally for up to almost 1/3 of their length. Typically to assist the svelte tubes with handling the higher loads from the step, up almost to the 1st set of spreaders (on a 3 or 4 spreader rig). Especially to assist in dealing with loads at the mast collar, & from those generated by the butt end of the spinnaker pole. Which on racing boats, are sometimes measured in tons.
Plus, the lower end of a spar tends to see more stresses than the higher up bits anyway. Witness the commonality of double lower shrouds/Babystays, & that they're often as thick as the caps, headstay, & backstay.
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Old 12-02-2015, 17:04   #6
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Re: Mast Splice below the partners???

When we were boat shopping last time, one of the boats had a spliced mast. It was a keel stepped mast section spliced below deck. I asked Bob P. about it, he said no problem if it was done right. We ended up with a different boat, but I have thought about splicing in 6/7 more feet to this boats main mast.
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Old 12-02-2015, 18:39   #7
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Re: Mast Splice below the partners???

Thanks for the replies everybody!
I'll answer them one, a few at a time... But I WILL respond to all...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryon View Post
You might try talking to the manufacturers to help you find a vendor. I used to do business with Aluminum Extrusion Service - International Extrusion Corporation, Texas years ago. Should be worth a call.
Ryon... I actually hadn't thought about directly talking to extrusion guys... This may be a worthwhile endeavor! Thanks for the lead!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
My in mast furling mast was spliced at the bottom 5 feet or so when I had it custom rebuilt.. it was showing stress cracks at the window cut in the mast for the in furling. So we doubled it with extrusion, structural epoxy and aircraft style rivets.
But I have to ask... what parts do you really need for your original rig? Other than the main extrusion why not just put different parts on it?
Cheech... So the splice was 5 ft above the step??? How much more to the partners??? There's been a couple "not such a great idea" replies from some of my surveyor, marine repair buds... But I can't see why I couldn't build it bullet proof like you??? I'm talking weight down low, and it is all concealed behind a panel in a cabinet...

I needed a section of extrusion, as I had a break at the lower spreader close to the original splice... 84" was my estimate to gap both joints, and it just sounds plain stupid anyway... Other pieces I need are 2 spreaders... I mean, I could buy 6 new ones... But why when I only need two???



Quote:
Originally Posted by dpddj View Post
Splicing masts is not uncommon in larger rigs. We used to do that at the custom aluminum yard I worked at, when we still made our own rigs. We added an internal sleeve (external would work as well but will be visible). I think rule of thumb was 2X diameter above and below the splice. Make sure the ends of the sleeve have 'fingers' on them, not just cut off. The fingers should have nice, well radiused inside and outside features. Not welded as a HAZ is created, so joined with fasteners.
You should be able to find some good examples with the Al Gore created internet search.
I've done tons of splicing research, and it really is so common and relatively simple if you do it correctly... All of the points you bring up are well known to me already... 2X+ check, no weld check... I have perfect example of a great factory splice to reference...

When I broached this subject of "location below the partners" to a few people I know... There wasn't a resounding... NO PROBLEM!

More like a Hmmm...
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Old 13-02-2015, 05:14   #8
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Re: Mast Splice below the partners???

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
It's not quite the answer you're looking for, but you can always go with an extrusion from another maker... and then HAMMER Sparcraft online, via your link to Ann T. Cate's recommendations about such.

I mean honestly, if you've been putting in the level of effort which you describe for over 7 months, it's time to tell S It's not quite the answer you're looking for, but you can always go with an extrusion from another maker... and then HAMMER Sparcraft online, via your link to Ann T. Cate's recommendations about such.

I think this going t have to be the route to go… Simply ditch the rig, albeit busted… And go new or go used…

I mean honestly, if you've been putting in the level of effort which you describe for over 7 months, it's time to tell Sparcraft to go & F**k themselves. Especially as, even if you do get them to sell you a new extrusion, it's obvious that they're customer service regarding it will be utter Crap at best. Let alone should there be a major problem with it which needs sorting out.

I think it would have been ridiculous to not be able to get anything my self… But when I’ve had me, 3 rig shops, and a rigging supply place all come up empty… You seriously need to let people know… Funny thing… I ran across ANOTHER Sparcraft rig that needs the some mods… Guess which one I picked???

Vendors should be seeking out buyers, not the other way around (SIC). Regardless of what commodity is being bought or sold. And good customer service both encourages repeat business, plus, word of mouth generated sales.
Something which is still Huge, even with the internet & it's effects on business.

I couldn’t agree MORE… There are TWO OUTSTANDING spar companies that I have had SEVERAL email exchanges without having purchased a product… Somebody of at HALL SPAR with the last name HALL was kind enough to look op extrusion sections, send drawings, and make suggestions…. Somebody at SELDEN was kind enough to answer my emails, with design concerns and suggestions…

One other thought is that now would also be a good time to add a few feet to your spar, so that you can bump up your light air, sail carrying ability. Most boats/folks tend to add around 5' or so, especially as an increase of any less than 3' really isn't worth it (you don't get much extra SA from a 2' taller mast). And it's sadly, all too common for most boats to be woefully under-canvased as they come from the factory.
Have a qualified guy run the numbers for you. But rarely is it anything even vaguely approaching an unsafe mod.

Man… sounds like a good idea, but I think I’m already pushing the tall envelope… 72’ air draft… Main+ST+Genny= 2150 sq ft… It definitely is worth asking other owners…

On the adding 7' to the bottom end thing. Were it me, I'd seriously try & avoid it. As a joint there, right about at deck level, is going to see a lot of load & stress - From: the deck blocking, the vang, said locale being a major loading area by design, etc.
It could likely be done, but... However, such is a conversation that you need to have with at least 2 different, independent, well qualified riggers.

YEP… Giant loads in that region… That’s why I didn’t dismiss it as a no brainer, when a regular splice is… I’ve got a couple rigging guys going on it, and have a contact for a Marine Engineer recommended from a rockstar surveyor I know…

One last thought/info-bit. It's common on racing boats (with aluminum masts) to sleeve them internally for up to almost 1/3 of their length. Typically to assist the svelte tubes with handling the higher loads from the step, up almost to the 1st set of spreaders (on a 3 or 4 spreader rig). Especially to assist in dealing with loads at the mast collar, & from those generated by the butt end of the spinnaker pole. Which on racing boats, are sometimes measured in tons.
Plus, the lower end of a spar tends to see more stresses than the higher up bits anyway. Witness the commonality of double lower shrouds/Babystays, & that they're often as thick as the caps, headstay, & backstay.

I’ve seen something like this too… Hence the idea of being able to make the lower 1/5th of the stick bullet proof… I can afford all the weight it would take down low…
Thanks for the thorough reply Unciv!
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Old 13-02-2015, 05:17   #9
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Re: Mast Splice below the partners???

Quote:
Originally Posted by ctl411 View Post
When we were boat shopping last time, one of the boats had a spliced mast. It was a keel stepped mast section spliced below deck. I asked Bob P. about it, he said no problem if it was done right. We ended up with a different boat, but I have thought about splicing in 6/7 more feet to this boats main mast.
Hmm.... Good idea about asking Bob.... I've got a Spartalk post... Darest I ask the question over on "those that shall remain nameless"?

Thanks for the post ctl !
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Old 13-02-2015, 06:40   #10
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Re: Mast Splice below the partners???

You could post over on anarchy, rough crowd if you get on their bad side but lots of knowledge. Lots of useless crap and thread drifts also.
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Old 13-02-2015, 06:49   #11
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Re: Mast Splice below the partners???

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You could post over on anarchy, rough crowd if you get on their bad side but lots of knowledge. Lots of useless crap and thread drifts also.
Oh man... Shhhhh I just did it about an hour ago...
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Old 13-02-2015, 07:21   #12
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Re: Mast Splice below the partners???

Um, looked at the post. They have "rules" over there for first time posters.
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Old 13-02-2015, 08:43   #13
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Re: Mast Splice below the partners???

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Um, looked at the post. They have "rules" over there for first time posters.
I'm good at breaking rules... Especially the one's that I'm not specifically aware of...

You mean like having a CF link???
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Old 13-02-2015, 09:07   #14
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Re: Mast Splice below the partners???

They don't seem to care about or have many rules but this one. Pm sent.
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Old 13-02-2015, 09:34   #15
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Re: Mast Splice below the partners???

Obviously is not the right place to splice a mast with a sleeve, right there at the bottom compresión loads are greater compared with the top, not imposible but you need to be sure that the sleeve fit even perfect at the inner section , a single row of 10 pan head screws at the main track área , 4 rows in the sides making a criss cross pattern with each other and doublé row in the FWD section if is wide enough,,, but again you need to be 100% sure the sleeve flow smoth and without gaps in each side , the FWD section with a finger ... use hig strenght lock tite in each screw and be sure the mast face and the sleeve face rest perfect , when you have the screws tight grab the mast at this área and shake it or try to bend it with your weight and retight the screws ..,,

BTW.. Sparcraft,, no idea whit what kind of BS seller or salesman you guys are dealing with, but so far so good we dont have any isue ordering parts , it take time due the location but we got always answers from the main dealer...... but is juts me off course...

Cheers....
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