First time buying NEW sails! Recommendations?

[chowdan]

I've got a bunch of emails out to many different sail lofts - local and non-local.

I'm likely going to go with a local sail maker for the fact that I dont want to fully take responsibility for potential incorrect measurements, at least not for the first time i order new sails.

The boat is a 41 foot sloop and we are hoping to head south next year. I know my existing headsail was not cut for our boat and any sort of upwind performance is pretty terrible as it stands. It'd be nice to be able to point higher than 60 degrees without the entire rig "whomping" as the head sail flutters. I know cruising south is mostly down wind, and we are kind of expecting to use our existing headsail as a downwind sail only.

That said, I'm not sure what people generally look for in new sails?
I was think PTFE thread is a must along with a sunbrella cover for added UV protection since we are heading south.

What sort of cloth weight? 8oz? 9oz? 10oz? Personally was thinking 9oz, but unsure?

What about size of the sail? 115% or 135%? Or? Our boat has a bigger headsail than mainsail(which also will be replaced end of this year).

[Sailmonkey]

Ptfe thread on the sunbrella UV strip. Not the whole sail.

As for size.....that’s up to you. We’ve had several sail sizes at this point. For tradewind sailing our boat likes around a 110%-115%. For sailing locally (south Texas or Florida gulf coast) a 135%-140% is better. Let the sailmaker determine the weight based on your intended usage.

Ask questions. look at things like leech/foot line adjustments. Pay attention to how the sailmaker proposes to construct the corners. Ask about shape when partially furled and how the belly is taken out (normally foam pads or rope sewn in).

[chowdan]

Originally Posted by Sailmonkey

Ptfe thread on the sunbrella UV strip. Not the whole sail.

As for size.....that’s up to you. We’ve had several sail sizes at this point. For tradewind sailing our boat likes around a 110%-115%. For sailing locally (south Texas or Florida gulf coast) a 135%-140% is better. Let the sailmaker determine the weight based on your intended usage.

Ask questions. look at things like leech/foot line adjustments. Pay attention to how the sailmaker proposes to construct the corners. Ask about shape when partially furled and how the belly is taken out (normally foam pads or rope sewn in).

PTFE on the UV strip makes total sense. It's what lives in UV basically it's entire life, so makes very much sense to me.

AS for size, I am leaning towards a 115% with it cut up somewhat high(i've read clew should be right around 6ft off the deck for visibility - our current one is right around the 3foot mark). Main reason for this is that I can get a light wind sail that can be flown separately and still be able to roll up the 110-115% and still retain a decent shape.

[JPA Cate]

If you are ordering sails for long term usage, I would most strongly suggest a ptfe row of stitching for both your headsail and your mainsail. While it is a third row of holes, it will support the cloth as long as it lasts. In two years, it will be the strongest row of stitching and may just keep the sails together in a blow. When you go cruising, you do a lot of day sailing. Order the boom bag to be all sewed with ptfe thread.

If your sailmaker will do it, have the sails tri-radial cut, from spectra cloth seconds. They can work around the nubs of the weird places, and the sail will not cost much more than dacron, and will retain their shape far longer. Otherwise, they are very expensive.

If your boat's set up to run a storm jib, regular dacron thread will be fine. Such sails get little use, though, on our old boat, our best days' runs were done under storm jib alone. Didn't get much sun.

Ann

[Kestrahl]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

If your sailmaker will do it, have the sails tri-radial cut, from spectra cloth seconds. They can work around the nubs of the weird places, and the sail will not cost much more than dacron, and will retain their shape far longer. Otherwise, they are very expensive.

Ann

It is really quite risky using woven seconds material. There are so many reasons why the cloth can be seconds and a lot of them are not visible and are not small bits you can cut around. For example the cloth is not flat, the cloth is stretchy, bad yarns were used, no UV inhibitors. Many things you can't see but will become evident later on causing the sail to either stretch or not last as expected.

[Dockhead]

OK, a couple of tips. Just my opinions, for whatever they are worth. You will get a variety of different opinions on sails and you will have to decide yourself how to approach it in the end.


1. First of all, enjoy. If you like to sail, then new sails are hands down the best money you will ever spend on your boat. Good sails absolutely transform any boat, and from the looks of your, you have a good bit of sailing potential which good sails will unlock.


2. Shop around a lot, but in the end in my experience a good local sailmaker is always the best solution. A lot cheaper than the big name lofts and a bit more expensive than China Sails etc., but a real live human sailmaker is worth his weight in gold.


3. Note that local sailmakers sometimes recommend ordering from China Sails (and the like) but through them, they do all the measurements and then rework the sail somewhat when it comes. Some people have reported good results this way.


4. Consider laminate sails. Laminate sails have changed tremendously in the last decade. The panels are now made in autoclaves and they no longer deliminate or mildew. With tafetta on both sides they are very long lasting. I have at least 20,000 miles and 6 years on a set of carbon laminate sails (panels from Bainbridge) and they are -- like new. Astonishingly good. And the shape is like the first day. Woven sails start stretching the first day you use them, and the shape gets worse and worse. I will never have a woven sail again ever in my life. The cost is more than good Dacron but not double, the the life you get out of them, during which they have an excellent shape, must be like 10x more. Unless you're content to have a good shape for only a year or two, and then willing to sail around with ever increasingly blown out sails, then just don't do Dacron.



My sailmaker told me all of this when I was ordering new sails, and I didn't really believe him. But the cost was not so outrageous that I would have been unhappy to get 5 good years out of these sails. Well, my expectations were so far exceeded that it is ridiculous. I will get AT LEAST 10 years out of these sails. The sailmaker was UNDERselling, not overselling, as it turned out.



5. Think hard about the principle headsail. Overlapping genoas are reaching sails, not upwind sails. If you care about sailing upwind, consider a blade jib for that, and a cruising Code 0 or something like that for light wind off the wind. When I had my sails made, I ordered BOTH a 120% yankee like the boat was built with, AND a 95% blade, both in carbon laminate, figuring I would mostly use the yankee but hoist the blade for upwind sailing in strong conditions. Well, in real life, it turned out to be the opposite -- I use the blade more than 90% of the time, and use the yankee only for racing in light wind, when I have a full crew. The blade is far more versatile than the yankee, working very well on all points of sail and equal or more power than the yankee even in very light wind, provided the wind is ahead of the beam. Then yankee is better than the blade only in light wind AND beam reaching or deeper. And it has a much higher wind range -- I never reef it -- I can use it up to 30 knots apparent or so, whereupon I just furl it and use the staysail. Now I sail in windy higher latitudes where we have a lot of days over 20 knots. YMMV if you are sailing mostly in mild latitudes, but this at least will give you something to think about.


6. When thinking about headsails, keep in mind that you drastically shorten their lives if you reef them. Much less so with laminate than with Dacron, but the stress is unhealthy even for laminate. Besides that, the performance of roller furling headsails goes to hell when you start reefing them. This is another reason to think about a smaller, rather than larger headsail, and control sail area with the mainsail and not by rolling in the headsail. Changing headsails for different conditions is also a really good idea, although it's a lot of trouble with a short-handed crew.


Good luck, and let us know how you get on!

[Sailmonkey]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

5. Think hard about the principle headsail. Overlapping genoas are reaching sails, not upwind sails. If you care about sailing upwind, consider a blade jib for that, and a cruising Code 0 or something like that for light wind off in very light wind, provided the wind is ahead of the beam. Then yankee is better than the blade only in light wind AND beam reaching or deeper. And it has a much higher wind range -- I never reef it -- I can use it up to 30 knots apparent or so, whereupon I just furl it and use the staysail. Now I sail in windy higher latitudes where we have a lot of days over 20 knots. YMMV if you are sailing mostly in mild latitudes, but this at least will give you something to think about.


!

All good advice here.......but......depending on the boat, you may need overlapping head sails to beat to weather. This is very boat dependent. Our boat (admittedly not very weatherly) cannot be balanced when beating with a blade jib. And I’d love to be able to pull a blade jib in tight on a track and just be able to tack!

[sail sfbay]

Originally Posted by chowdan

..............I'm likely going to go with a local sail maker............That said, I'm not sure what people generally look for in new sails? I was think PTFE thread is a must along with a sunbrella cover for added UV protection since we are heading south. What sort of cloth weight? 8oz? 9oz? 10oz? What about size of the sail? 115% or 135%? Or? Our boat has a bigger headsail than mainsail (which also will be replaced end of this year).

Good plan to go to your sailmaker for measurements, discuss features and benefits and installation!! Suggest tri-radial CDX Pro 9 8.3 ounce (my jib is CDX Pro 9/11 and 9.3 ounce) cruising laminate with blue water off-shore construction (extra rows of stitching on panel seams, 2 vs. 1 row on tapes, leech foot and luff tapes made of Hydranet dacron with dyneema for improved strength and chafe resistance, leather corner on the jib, and a stronger Rutgerson block on the clew of the mainsail as specified by me sailmaker), rope luff flattner for jib reefing, UV cover sewn with tenara thread. As far size I like a 105% and my head sail is also larger than my in-mast furling main sail and doe not limit the sailboat's ability to sail at hull speed. Be sure to request "panel layout" and "floor card" specifications from your sailmaker.

https://www.contendersailcloth.com/p...ing-laminates/

[jim King]

I went with a sailmaker based on the other side of the US because of the cost. they were 40% cheaper than any of the locals. In the end it cost me over 50% in recuts and adjustments. I would have been money ahead with a local. You really do get what you pay for when it comes to having someone who will carefully measure you mast and boom and make the right cut the first time.

[wingssail]

Lots of good tips here on selecting cloth, thread, and features to enhance longevity of your new sail. I'm always careful about how much upselling from the sailmaker I accept. Your sail can become quite expensive. Those people with plenty of money to spend will always say it's worth it because they last longer. That is easy to say if you've got the money to spend. Myself I am careful about requesting only the definitely proven additions, or none. For example I have bought very basic and inexpensive Dacron sails for cruising and they have lasted well. My current mainsail and working jib are doing fine at 7 and 6 years old respectively. The shape is fine for cruising, including upwind shape.

As for size: Your boat is a performance boat. It will sail well with smaller headsails. I'd recommend a small jib (105%) as your major working sail. This sail will be a good size for winds up to 20kts or more with a reefed main and can be reefed slightly for higher winds so a foam luff is nice. When this sail won't work because the wind is too low, turn on the motor or put up an offwind sail. A small jib is a joy on a boat like yours.

Don't exclude the option of changing to a bigger sail on the furler (your old sail perhaps) if you are headed into a passage with light air.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by wingssail

. . . When this sail won't work because the wind is too low, turn on the motor or put up an offwind sail. A small jib is a joy on a boat like yours.

Don't exclude the option of changing to a bigger sail on the furler (your old sail perhaps) if you are headed into a passage with light air.

These lines very accurately reflect the place I have arrived at after a few decades doing this.

Unless you live in the doldrums, the light wind or offwind sail should not be your principle headsail. Those 140% genoas from the '80s are from the devil, they suck under a remarkably wide range of conditions.

A reasonably light and weatherly boat needs something more like 95% to 105% jib, as its principle headsail. If you're cruising -- Wingsail is so right -- the motor is the ideal iron topsail. Or bend on something else. A light genoa. Or a cruising Code 0. Something like that. Just recognize that the occasions when you want that, are the exception, and not the rule. In most cases, the small jib is just what you want to have up.

[AKA-None]

My 130 jib was recut to 110 and then I discovered the 95 high cut blade. It’s my primary jib now for all the reasons mentioned

[chowdan]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Lots of good tips here on selecting cloth, thread, and features to enhance longevity of your new sail. I'm always careful about how much upselling from the sailmaker I accept. Your sail can become quite expensive. Those people with plenty of money to spend will always say it's worth it because they last longer. That is easy to say if you've got the money to spend. Myself I am careful about requesting only the definitely proven additions, or none. For example I have bought very basic and inexpensive Dacron sails for cruising and they have lasted well. My current mainsail and working jib are doing fine at 7 and 6 years old respectively. The shape is fine for cruising, including upwind shape.

As for size: Your boat is a performance boat. It will sail well with smaller headsails. I'd recommend a small jib (105%) as your major working sail. This sail will be a good size for winds up to 20kts or more with a reefed main and can be reefed slightly for higher winds so a foam luff is nice. When this sail won't work because the wind is too low, turn on the motor or put up an offwind sail. A small jib is a joy on a boat like yours.

Don't exclude the option of changing to a bigger sail on the furler (your old sail perhaps) if you are headed into a passage with light air.

Wouldn't it be great if you could test a sail before you buy it to see how you liked it? Would love to test a 105% on my boat

That said, my thought is my current sail would be a decent down wind sail, and considering we are wanting to head south, likely will just end up as just that - DDW. I am also considering carrying a code zero or something dedicated for light days but that will come after the mainsail gets replaced later this year.

Being that we are a short handed crew, and likely will do some solo sailing, ill have to think about maybe a 105 instead of the 115. I think 115 is the max i want to go, but would like a higher cut sail than what we currently have(dont want to have to skirt it every time we tack and being able to see under it would be really nice).

[chowdan]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

These lines very accurately reflect the place I have arrived at after a few decades doing this.

Unless you live in the doldrums, the light wind or offwind sail should not be your principle headsail. Those 140% genoas from the '80s are from the devil, they suck under a remarkably wide range of conditions.

A reasonably light and weatherly boat needs something more like 95% to 105% jib, as its principle headsail. If you're cruising -- Wingsail is so right -- the motor is the ideal iron topsail. Or bend on something else. A light genoa. Or a cruising Code 0. Something like that. Just recognize that the occasions when you want that, are the exception, and not the rule. In most cases, the small jib is just what you want to have up.

Thanks for this and your other post! I really appreciate it from you and everyone else.

I wouldn't consider our boat a light weight boat - paper shows she's a 14 tons, and with just fuel and water before moving aboard she was 16 tons. Guessing we are probably closer to 18-20 tons with all our tools and ****.

I'm still leaning towards a 110 or 115. I worry that a 95 would be a tad small for us, but maybe not. I personally would rather have to fly a CC0 for the light wind days than have a sail thats far too big to be usable during heavy weather.

So many choices, too little budget. Need to sit and think about things for a few days before I commit.

[JPA Cate]

chowdan, some of this will probably depend on what your cruising plans are, as well. If you're going far afield, study the pilot charts for the areas you'll visit for the times of year you'll be there. Then you can tell your sailmaker what wind strengths you will expect to handle with your headsail. You may also opt for 3 reefs, and may eliminate the consideration of the trysail.

Will you put a furler on your inner stay?, or are you planning on hank-on sails there? [Jim and I sewed on the Witchard hook type of hanks to our storm jib, because he could hold onto the stay with one hand, and slam the hooks on the stay with the other, rather than needing both hands to operate the hanks.]

Ann