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Old 02-01-2010, 10:46   #31
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Talking endless line furlers?

this makes great reading all this , I would like to add another spectrum here with assymetrics ,
I have had a true cruising chute and sock for years and would use it s/handed in the right conditions . it needs care and practice but always worth the effort . I changed the spec of the next chute , the old one was too lightweight and ripped several times , to a Sobstad mpg , it has turned out to have been badly made with most seams fraying across the whole sail ! , but thats another matter . I bought a Sailspar endless furler to use with the new chute , but it has never actually managed to properly furl the sail !! so it has been used with the sock ,which is fine , as I am used to this system of furling .
The problem with the furler is when it is rotated it cant "grab" the sail what is needed to develop this into a working furler ? It has to be easier than a dousing sock as the endless furling line is in the cockpit which means no "deck dancing " !
Also, a question for Jack , "leading edge", Molan , is Dux any good for a main halyard ?? tough enough to tow a tank ,can it hold a main up ?
great to read such enthusiasm thanks , Gramos
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Old 02-01-2010, 10:50   #32
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no you dont. When you finish only a few boat lengths behind the leaders, without having to deal with the chute, gusts, etc, you'll be able to say you were almost first there with basic sails! If you have a chute........ then you MUST finish first as you will be expected to be in the front! and of course you will have paid a few thousand dollars for the pleasure of putting it up about once! If you have a good sailing genoa it's amazing how competitive you can be against boats with chutes on "round the bouy" races..... they gain a few boat lengths on one leg and then you pass them while they are trying to deal with taking the chute down and get trimmed on the next leg!
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Old 02-01-2010, 11:04   #33
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Originally Posted by gramos View Post
this makes great reading all this , I would like to add another spectrum here with assymetrics ,
I have had a true cruising chute and sock for years and would use it s/handed in the right conditions . it needs care and practice but always worth the effort . I changed the spec of the next chute , the old one was too lightweight and ripped several times , to a Sobstad mpg , it has turned out to have been badly made with most seams fraying across the whole sail ! , but thats another matter . I bought a Sailspar endless furler to use with the new chute , but it has never actually managed to properly furl the sail !! so it has been used with the sock ,which is fine , as I am used to this system of furling .
The problem with the furler is when it is rotated it cant "grab" the sail what is needed to develop this into a working furler ? It has to be easier than a dousing sock as the endless furling line is in the cockpit which means no "deck dancing " !
Also, a question for Jack , "leading edge", Molan , is Dux any good for a main halyard ?? tough enough to tow a tank ,can it hold a main up ?
great to read such enthusiasm thanks , Gramos
Gramos, I wonder whether you have the right gear for furling a chute? If it's a Sailspar gear, I think it's a reefing system, not a furler, and you might check with Sailspar to confirm that it's suitable for the purpose you have in mind.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, ours is a furling gear - and it works fine. Some other systems may differ, but ours starts to furl from the centre using the line attached to the luff of the chute, and it's very simple and effective.
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Old 02-01-2010, 12:11   #34
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Futureoptions sorry for the delay in answering, I picked up the idea of the twizzle rig from a book I read about Atlantic crossings and it looks quite interesting. Seems he problem with twin headsails is they accentuate any roll from the waves. Putting an air gap between the sails helps but the Twizzle rig enables the two spinnaker poles to move side to side reducing the ocsolation.

So the two poles are joined together loosely with a rope widget and then supported by a spinnaker halyard and downhaul which we already have. I like the idea because by just loosening the two sheets you can use the roller reefing to reduce the sail size as they both roll together. This could be carried out from the cockpit easily in seconds if a squall came through.

The Twizzle Rig or Twistle Rig for Downwind Ocean Sailing

There are some interesting You tube videos too:

Thanks to all for this input- As i'm not interested in racing, but don't want to be left behind on rallies, also considering we are 2-handed and approaching retirement age, Pete 7's 'twizzle rig' does look interesting, however is there any comment on how it performs when close hauled (i did read the section), the effect of additional weight aloft, and also the increased windage when furled?- It must furl to quite a bulky package!
Thanks
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Old 02-01-2010, 12:32   #35
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Asym selections

Hi Granmos,
I have 3 Asymmetrical spinnakers listed below are some the configurations.
I have been told that the ATN dousing sleeve works best

Doyle Asymmetric Racing Spinnakers


Doyle's line of asymmetrical spinnakers is adding a new dimension to reaching and running. Doyle's line of asymmetrical spinnakers cover the entire range from broad running to tight reaching, allowing you to realize the full downwind potential of your boat. Doyle Sailmakers offers 6 unique Asymmetrical Spinnaker Molds.
VMG A1

The VMG is a fuller design for better stability and performance down wind. The VMG is for you if you have a stable, powerful boat and you want to improve reaching capability.
  • 85 - 165 AWA
  • 5 - 15 AWS



AP A2

Designed as a medium runner.
  • 70-150 AWA
  • 12-22 AWS



AP / Reacher A3

The AP / Reacher is slightly flatter than the VMG and has less girth accordingly. It is to be used as an IMS/PHRF reacher. This sail is for you if you have a less stable boat that accelerates easily and want improved reaching capability.
  • 55 - 105 AWA
  • 3 - 20 AWS



Runner A4

The Runner is designed to be as stable as a symmetrical spinnaker yet incorporates a unique shape distribution that allows the sail to fly out to weather, away from the mainsail. This Runner is for you if you have a stable, powerful boat and you want to improve broad reaching to downwind capability.
  • 130 - 160 AWA
  • 10 - 25 AWS



Code Zero

The Code Zero is the smallest asymmetrical spinnaker allowed by the IMS rule. This is a specialty sail built out of high modulus materials for light air cracked off to close reaching, this sail will dramatically increase your performance.
  • 46-80 AWA
  • 0-14 A
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Old 02-01-2010, 19:10   #36
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In my experience, both racing where we use a spinaker in anger and crusing where I generally do not, even though I have a facnor endless furler. ( on the crusing boat) The fact is that you will go just as fast with a good poled out genoa as you will with a spinny. You will also remain sane and safe.

I went across the atlantic on a genny poled to windward and a main, standard gear, no problems.
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Old 02-01-2010, 19:21   #37
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If you are on a budget, look for a used symmetric spinnaker. They always seem to be cheaper and more plentiful, probably because of turnover from racers.

I use my symmetric spinnaker both with the pole when I want to run dead downwind, and poleless like a cruising chute when I am broad reaching. I use a ATN sock, which the best place to sink your money.

I don't see how I would benefit from an asymmetical chute, as when close reaching it doesn't add that much over a genoa, and anything broader my symmetric chute will fly.

Adds LOTS of speed in light winds reaching, and any winds running from 120-180 degrees to true wind.

I agree with above posts- if you want to go downwind with any speed, learn to use a pole. It really is not that tough and I do it singlehanding with autopilot all the time in winds up to 15 kts. The ATN sock, and judicious use of the mainsail lee, make all the difference

Look at Bacon Sails in Annapolis- they have a great sizer and database of used sails....
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Old 02-01-2010, 19:42   #38
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I'm going to disagree with Malbert, et al, regarding the pole. Assym design has come a long way in the last ten years, and it's possible to sail the new ones deep by flying them to weather. Loosen the tack and halyard and let the sail find its own wind.

My G3 gennaker is such a good sail that I don't carry a genoa. For a cruiser who's not bent on short-tacking the layline (or covering the opposition), the new gennakers are far more versatile. A symmetrical chute with a pole still has its place, but only where people are doing that crazy windward/leward thing.
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Old 02-01-2010, 20:19   #39
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I appreciate your and respect your position. I use a spinnaker not in anger but in awe and do go considerably faster in a safe and sane manner. I wish you fare winds and many peaceful voyages.
Steve
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Old 02-01-2010, 21:44   #40
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Fun with Spinnakers

Symmetrical at Race Rocks near Victoria BC during an Oregon Offshore Race a few years ago - oh what fun! (Actually it was quite funny after it was over & no one got hurt.)

Summer Wind's asymmetrical at a fundraiser on the Columbia River.

Love the A-Sail! Puts the wind in our summer! No - it doesn't go dead down (we have two symmetricals & a 50lb dip pole for that). But it keeps two of us "older" folks moving along quite nicely against the current.
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Old 02-01-2010, 22:40   #41
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Hi all, I need some good info, so here goes:
Ive got a beneteau 423, based in Turkey. We have sailed her quite extensively, so we could consider ourselves reasonably proficient sailors. All this sailing has been done with no additional sails, ie we have main and genoa plus trysail only. The boat has what beneteau cal the 'performance pack, and actually sails really well, and resonably quickly for what she is. We have signed up for a yacht rally (not a race) which covers a large distance over several weeks but ar having definite insecurity symptoms as we are considering most boats wil have spinny/cruising chute etc, and we will be 'left in the wake!' So, the question is, what should we buy in the way of downwind sails? We sail 2-up, so what's the best option for us? I hear a spinny can be extremely demanding and difficult in some circumstances, but a cruising chute is more 'moderate' We are both in our 50's but both fit and active, so what's our best choice?
What a small world. We chartered your boat for a couple of weeks, I think it was back in 2005, out of Yalikavak, from an outfit called Aura Yachting. She was brand new at the time, and a sweet sailing boat, very fast for her size, and weatherly. The Meltemi was blowing in all its fury at the time, which your boat handled with aplomb. We had a hell of run downwind from Bodrum to Knidos one day in 45 knots of wind, on genoa alone with a couple of rolls in it, over 10 knots the whole way. We had a great time in her, definitely the best charter boat we ever had. A very sweet boat.

You will want a cruising chute, I would think. This will not help you too much dead down wind, but will be good in light air on a beam to broad reach. A conventional spinnaker is too much work for just two people, in my opinion. You really would want to have at least three sailors on board. For a cruising boat, it's probably more trouble than it's worth anyway, unless you're planning an ARC or some other passage where you will be sailing trade winds for weeks at a time.
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Old 03-01-2010, 11:33   #42
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Talking poles

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Kite with snuffer or furler, asym or symmetric...furling gennaker...no matter what you need a pole to go downwind.

I've seen it a thousand times: people buy lots of "cruising" spinnakers and big jibs (gennikers, whatever) from their sailmaker, hoping to go downwind without a pole, only to discover that they have to reach back and forth and gybe downwind. Without a pole the mainsail will blanket whatever you have up.

WHATEVER sail you get, get a good pole with the proper controls (lift, foreguy, etc.). They are NOT hard to use once you figure it out, and can be used with your spin as well as smaller jibs.

It will save you a lot of headaches in the long run. Especially on boats that tend to have a lot of weather helm on waves and like to round up (ahem...such as many Beneteaus). Having some sail area on the windward side is critical to balancing the helm and making it easier to steer.

The only boats that can get away without a pole (and use a bowsprit instead) are really lightweight fast ones that can bend the apparent wind forward with their speed.

Despite all the hype about "cruising spinnakers", you're usually better off with a symmetrical regular kite for going downwind. They are easier to douse because the clews are at the same height and have less chance to go in the water.

Now, for reaching it's a different case and you could very well use an asym or furling gennaker without a pole.
Ah , this only applies to monos , no pole neede on catamarans having a much wider base to fly from , gramos
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Old 03-01-2010, 15:43   #43
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I agree an asym will not go dead down wind with out a pole but will go 140-150 quite well and lets be realistic most boats go much better at these wind angles and over all will perform very well a pole is an option not a necessity
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Old 04-01-2010, 13:05   #44
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What a small world. We chartered your boat for a couple of weeks, I think it was back in 2005, out of Yalikavak, from an outfit called Aura Yachting. She was brand new at the time, and a sweet sailing boat, very fast for her size, and weatherly. The Meltemi was blowing in all its fury at the time, which your boat handled with aplomb. We had a hell of run downwind from Bodrum to Knidos one day in 45 knots of wind, on genoa alone with a couple of rolls in it, over 10 knots the whole way. We had a great time in her, definitely the best charter boat we ever had. A very sweet boat.

You will want a cruising chute, I would think. This will not help you too much dead down wind, but will be good in light air on a beam to broad reach. A conventional spinnaker is too much work for just two people, in my opinion. You really would want to have at least three sailors on board. For a cruising boat, it's probably more trouble than it's worth anyway, unless you're planning an ARC or some other passage where you will be sailing trade winds for weeks at a time.
Hi Dockhead,
thanks for the compliment on FO-glad you had a good time on her. She still holds the time record from France to Yalikavak. We have taken her off charter with Aura now, We are going to live on her for a few years, doing the EMYR this summer. She has just had new sails from North Sails, and sails even better! Fitting her out with solar panels etc etc to become self sufficient as much as possible. You will notice our identity has changed- lost the future options password!
cheers
Bryan
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Old 04-01-2010, 16:00   #45
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Asym.

Thank you for the good words about the HOOD 38. I have a heavy air story for you and I can tell you because few others would believe me. A number of years ago we were doing a long distance race with our .75 OZ. spinnaker up. We rounded a navigational mark and were crossing a shipping channel when the wind veered to midship and gust to 50+ knots causing a knock down to the point that the top of our mast was touching the water. Our foredeck man blew the chute and we righted sailing under main alone dodging a freighter.the wind went dead aft and was blowing between 30- 50 knots we hoisted a jib and reefed the main creating a balanced rig we were doing fine but I decided to hoist our Storm Spinnaker amid strong protest. Once the chute was up we were going dead down with the whole crew sitting on the stern rail sailing perfectly balanced. The water was more foam and closely spaced 4-5 footers the knot meter reached 14.2 and we sailed the fastest leg of my career. This boat is amazing
Steve Hicks
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