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Old 03-11-2008, 14:24   #1
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Cockpit confusion or Mast mayhem

Back on the boat after 5 mths away, very painfull seperation ! Now the first thing we need to do is get some of our deck gear back on the boat and the questions we are pondering at the moment are:

If we run the halyards back to the cabin top/cockpit (they were on the mast), is there any rules for what side to run them to, main on one side headsail on the other, spinnaker best goes where, etc ?

We have plenty of rope clutches but short on winches so we were thinking of having a bank of clutches on each side and one winch on each side on the cabin top. Any tips on that layout before we screw thing on ?

Where is the best place to run the headsail furling cord, cockpit or cabin top ?

There are numerous other ropes to organise the full list goes:
Main Halyard
Headsail Halyard
Staysail Halyard
SPinnaker Halyard
Topping lift
Headsail furling cord
Vang
Boom brake control
Outhaul
reefing (slab probably)


The sheets are all dealt with by the two big cockpit winches. The staysail is selftacking.

The other thing is all halyards are rope and wire spliced up near the mast top. I would say for the time being we will keep these but am open to suggestion as to what to do long term. the mast is not coming down any time soon.

Thanks for any tips or comments !
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Old 03-11-2008, 14:43   #2
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That is what we have two 2 speed winches on either side of the cabin top. The rope clutches are in front of the winches.

There really are no rules where they go but you'll need to attach blocks to the mast base, then lead the lines to an organizer on the deck that will make a 90 degree turn and head to the clutches. You'll require backing plates on all of these things. Nice 1/8th inch AlMag plates are great. You just need to make the leads as fair as you can. Once you start running the lines to the blocks at the mast base things start to sort out which goes where. You want the leads as straight as you can to the base then turn to the cockpit. You may also need a pad eye if the lead has to skew a little. The lines that have the biggest loads are the ones to maximize the lead on.

We don't have everything run back. I could use three more lines but there really isn't an easy way to run them. With two head sails it can be a little harder depending on the arrangement. I don't have the topping lift or outhaul run back as well as the spinnaker halyard. I don't have any winches on the mast. Two speed winches are nice if you can. Reef lines are perhaps one of the best to run back. We are set up with jiffy reefs but only have two reef points set up. The third reef has to be set manually.

Headsail furling is usually run along the stanchions on stanchion blocks. Gozzard runs them now down the center of the boat but they build in a channel when they make the boat. Ours run in tubes inside the bulkwarts. It looks nice but the resistance is a bit higher. It isn't something you would try after the the boat was built. You need to play with the lead off the last forward block and the drum to get as 90 degrees to the drum as you can. We have a dual cam cleat for both furling lines on the furling lines but a single cleat can be used.
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Old 03-11-2008, 14:50   #3
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First the furling line. That doesn't need to be on the coachroof. Cockpit is fine as most don't require a winch. Your main halyard should be on a different side from the main sheet. Also put the jib halyard on the busiest winch (winch that takes the most lines) as you will seldom use this because you've got furling. I would put the reefing lines on the same side as the main halyard, especially if you have single line reefing. Then you can ease the halyard, lock it, grind the reefing line, lock it and then tighten the halyard a bit. All at the same winch. I would not bother taking the topping lift aft. Boom brake controls I would take aft to the cockpit sides. Outhaul on the same side as the jib halyard, again seldom used. Spinnaker halyard on the jib halyard side. Staysail halyard on the main halyard side. Vang line on the main halyard side.
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Old 03-11-2008, 14:56   #4
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Taking it all in. Off to the boat in an hour so we will print it all and look at it on deck.

Thanks !
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Old 06-11-2008, 07:28   #5
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This was a very informative thread for me, I was wondering if some of you can make similar recommendations for me. I have an O'Day 32 CC, and two sets of clutches, one a double and one a triple. I don't have or plan on using a spinnaker at the moment. Not totally against it, though.

Any ideas? I am a cruiser, obviously with a boat named Slow Ride, lol.
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Old 06-11-2008, 07:57   #6
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If you bring a bunch of the lines back it can get crowded in the cockpit.

Jib Halyards: Almost everyone has roller furling. Once it's up you forget it. Why bring it back?
Kite Halyards: I like the ability to jump them when setting the kite and the cockpit will be busy with trimmers. Leave it forward.
Main Halyard: If you need to go to the mast to set the ring in the horn you may as well leave the halyard at the mast.
Reef lines: Clew, bring these back.
Topping lift: Bring it back.
Vang: Bring it back.
Outhaul: Leave it on the boom.

Furling lines are usually back to the cockpit via the rail.

Side note: I was always told to have the wire on the winch with wire to rope splices.

My $.00002
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Old 06-11-2008, 10:08   #7
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If you have to have two banks of clutches suggest you think of what lines you'll need to use at the same time when under load. ie main halyard and 1st reef - spinnaker pole uphaul and spinnaker downhaul - main halyard and outhaul - etc.

Then ensure you've one of each going to each side.

Nothing worse than really needing a winch to find it occupied by an equally vital line!

Or if you are starting from scratch and your winch positions might allow you to consider this - you could build a single 'line organiser' and have just one bank of clutches instead of two.

Sorry - we don't have pictures - but did this on a past build and it works.

You bring all lines from mast base back down the yacht centre line to a big bank of clutches placed in front of your companionway - above the hatch cover.

AFT of those clutches you install a home built line organiser. Pullys lying on their side. It is easy to do - two alloy flat bars, drilled and with teflon washers to allow each line to run between each two adjacent pullys. As long and as many pullys as you have lines + 1.

You can from this take any line to a winch on either side. It is a very handy ability if the deck layout permits a fairlead to the winches.

Hope this is understandable.........

Good luck
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Old 06-11-2008, 11:41   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swagman View Post
If you have to have two banks of clutches suggest you think of what lines you'll need to use at the same time when under load. ie main halyard and 1st reef - spinnaker pole uphaul and spinnaker downhaul - main halyard and outhaul - etc.

Then ensure you've one of each going to each side.

Nothing worse than really needing a winch to find it occupied by an equally vital line!

Or if you are starting from scratch and your winch positions might allow you to consider this - you could build a single 'line organiser' and have just one bank of clutches instead of two.

Sorry - we don't have pictures - but did this on a past build and it works.

You bring all lines from mast base back down the yacht centre line to a big bank of clutches placed in front of your companionway - above the hatch cover.

AFT of those clutches you install a home built line organiser. Pullys lying on their side. It is easy to do - two alloy flat bars, drilled and with teflon washers to allow each line to run between each two adjacent pullys. As long and as many pullys as you have lines + 1.

You can from this take any line to a winch on either side. It is a very handy ability if the deck layout permits a fairlead to the winches.

Hope this is understandable.........

Good luck
JOHN
Cool Idea but no aft area past the hatch on my dinky little boat....man what mega yacht are you sailing ?


Not a very good picture but when our sliding hatch is closed it would be impossible to reach any clutches mounted forward of it on the cabin trunk top..there probably is another foot of hatch opening you cant see...Im pretty much mandated to have all halyard and topping lifts at the mast.

This is OK by me if I wanted to stay warm and dry 100% of the time I would have stayed with power boating..being on a bucking deck in the elements is to me what sailing is all about anyhow...
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Old 08-11-2008, 12:39   #9
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We have crayoned out the layout on the deck without drilling any holes, yet.

We may start with some gear on the mast and some in the cockpit until we get the time to replace all the ropes and then have longer ones to reach the cockpit.

A question appears in that process. Could we replace the wire part of the halyards (rope through the mast, then wire to the sails) with spectra or similar, it would need to be spliced into a thicker braid so we get to handle regular sized ropes in the cockpit and on the winches/clutches, etc. Otherwise we could get rid of the wire all together and have one size of rope from winch to sail. Why would they have done the wire and rope combo ? we can think of a few reasons, if correct - windage, stretch, UV resistance.
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Old 10-11-2008, 20:10   #10
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You are correct..Strech...it was before the development of high tech lines.

FWIW your shive is already a combination shive if you can easly pull out line past the wire to rope brade..I have one left on my boat ..my mizzen halyard..when it finally wears out I will go all rope..no need to do a splice like you mentioned.
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Old 27-11-2008, 02:28   #11
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Mounted the clutches today on either side of the coach house roof and did the deck organisers yesterday. I think we have a handle on the layout, and if we need to change anything we will still have some flexibility for a while. The exist point from the mast present some concerns as the ropes come out high up and through exit plates, only the lower points have sheaves and they only are for the rope turning up to the old on mast winches (now removed), not out to the blocks leading back to the cockpit. I am reluctant to go cutting new exit points in the mast (do not want to weaken it). Also, I need to switch sides for some of the halyards to get them back to the cockpit in harmony with the other lines running back. Bit concerned about getting a tangle inside the mast If I pull a halyard across tot he other side exit point. Any tricks for avoiding crossed ropes in the mast (apart from dropping the mast).
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Old 27-11-2008, 04:31   #12
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Quote:
Also, I need to switch sides for some of the halyards to get them back to the cockpit in harmony with the other lines running back. Bit concerned about getting a tangle inside the mast If I pull a halyard across tot he other side exit point.
I would leave the exits points where they are and avoid the criss cross to get them to a specific clutch. Some lines end up on one side vs the other. I would not go to the effort of getting them on a specific side by cutting new exit points. It may be theoretically an advantage to have them on a specific side if it were a race boat with a full crew but not really that much advantage cruising with one or two people if it means cutting new exits and adding new plates. My jiffy reefing lines are port side and main halyard is starboard. I've never noticed there being a disadvantage to having them on different sides. Getting fairest leads possible would be a very good goal.

If you just have to do it then moving the exit directly across tom the other side of the mast should help avoid tangled halyards.

You do want to avoid angles through the blocks less than 90 degrees if you can since the higher loads on the blocks translate into resistance at the winch. The more bend in the block the higher the load at the block. Less blocks with less bend will make the lines flow the smoothest. Lines exiting the mast need to have as small a deflection from vertical as possible before you turn and hopefully reach an organizer then direct to the clutch. Keeping the angle through the block as large as possible. It would be nice to have the line entering the organizer on the horizontal at about 45 degrees aft from the mast turning block then straight back making the angle 135 degrees or even more. That means just one block and the organizer to the clutch.

Posting a picture in your gallery would help us all see the situation better

Do you have blocks at the mast base that can line up with the exit points up the mast? Ideally the leads should exit the plate then turn on a block at the base of the mast then take a bend to the clutch. Lines from the boom may have blocks located differently.
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Old 27-11-2008, 12:14   #13
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That had some gems of wisdom in there, thanks. I had not considered the 90 degree issue. I can put up with current locations of the exit points. It will only be after sailing the yacht that we will know what works and we can always change the layout latter.

I will take a current photo and post it on the weekend. Though in the meantime I should be able to find some of the mast base and put them on sooner.

We do not have blocks at the base, yet. I have some old ones that I sat there to play with to see what the lines we going to go through on their journey down and then aft. Most of the exit points are forward on the mast, so the blocks are in an awkward location. The base of the mast has removable metal rods that must be there to mount blocks on. I have put in a mounting point as forward of the mast as I can go, to take a stand up block, that is for one of those awkward forward looking exits. I can not readily put more there as we have a staysail self tacking track running across just forward of the mast. I know that sometime in the future we will need spinnaker ropes, but for the time being the headsail and mainsail and stysail will be all that we will use. We have never sailed with a spinnaker so that hurdle is some time away.

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Old 27-11-2008, 12:24   #14
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The difficulty in making something that works is maybe the most important idea. I think the pictures would more of us see situation better. Someone may gave done parts of what you need and of course it's always nice to know before hand that it's going to work well.
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Old 27-11-2008, 12:47   #15
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I just added two photos that show the mast base and deck, however the organisers have since been added and there are now holes through the metal guard on the aft of the coack house roof so the ropes can run through to the clutches. I will take some pics today of the mast exits and the overall situation to date.
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