Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 04-12-2008, 15:18   #31
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Tasmania
Boat: VandeStadt IOR 40' - Insatiable
Posts: 2,149
Images: 90
I recently replaced my stainless wire runners with synthetic...

Runners
7mm 1x19 316 wire -> 10mm Vectran (with braided cover)

Checkstays
4mm 1x19 316 wire -> 6mm Vectran (with braided cover)

Lighter and stronger, apparently.

Backstay is still wire, but only because it provides HF aerial
__________________

__________________
Weyalan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2008, 19:53   #32
Registered User
 
Jmolan's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Mexico/Alaska/Oregon
Boat: 34' Searunner Tri
Posts: 712
Quote:
Originally Posted by
;229994
I recently replaced my stainless wire runners with synthetic...

Runners
7mm 1x19 316 wire -> 10mm Vectran (with braided cover)

Checkstays
4mm 1x19 316 wire -> 6mm Vectran (with braided cover)

Lighter and stronger, apparently.

Backstay is still wire, but only because it provides HF aerial
Gashmore, I was about to apologize to my "crack" about over engineering. I was on lunch break on that post and was moving pretty fast to get it done. I do not want to make anyone think I am flippant about getting this stuff down to the right dimensions and all. I really appreciate your work your are doing...very cool stuff..:-)

Weyalan....This is a good way to start on synthetics I think. Runners if you got em. You bring up a point I want to ask. I know every one uses big insulators on the backstay for the HF radios. My question is why could you not just run a copper wire inside of a hollow core like dux in your backstay? The only caution I have heard of is heat. Does a side band radio build up heat on the antennea wire? If it does not, then I would think you might be able to go lighter and cheaper (no insulators) with a Dux backstay.

But what about lighting? If my rig is soaked from a tropical rain, and I get hit by lightning will dux conduct it? Anyone know? If I have a super grounding system will I be OK? My mast is mounted on top of the centerboard trunk and is about two feet from the water directly under the mast. And if I have a backstay with a copper core for an antennae am I in troble there also?

Anyone?
__________________

__________________
Jmolan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2008, 20:43   #33
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Mid-Willamette Valley area, Oregon
Boat: Searunner 34 Trimaran
Posts: 76
Send a message via Skype™ to Rann
Jack,

Those are really good questions about wire in the backstay for HF antenna, and the issues of lightning protection. I was about to pose the same question re: antenna wire. If you are running a typical HF Amateur or marine SSB rig, it might be about 100 watts input. The actual output to the antenna is another issue. I will run this by a ham friend of mine who is quite good on the technical stuff.

Even if the Dux is not a good electrical conductor, the aluminum mast probably is, and running a good ground down into the water via the centerboard trunk would certainly be a very direct route for grounding. From all I have read (and it has been a lot over time) about lightning protection, I am still at a loss as to what works best for us on a sailboat. There are numerous accounts of various cruisers suffering a direct hit with their reports on it. Maybe someone on this forum will have some cogent comments to make about it.

Jack, those extensions on your shroud chainplates in a previous post look real good. When I get the 316 SS for mine, I will just make them a little wider so they can accommodate the deadeyes for attachment. I probably will stay with my present turnbuckles for now to keep the re-rigging costs down ($69 each for those deadeyes each at retail! I see at least 14 for the rig on a Searunner 34), but with the chainplates wide enough, I can upgrade to deadeyes later on. The weight savings in 'buckles alone is well worth the conversion.

Rann
__________________
Rann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2008, 20:59   #34
Registered User
 
Jmolan's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Mexico/Alaska/Oregon
Boat: 34' Searunner Tri
Posts: 712
Rann I posed the questions over on the electrical/electronic thread. There are some really smart guys around here, and I hope to get some kind of an idea what they might know or think. Also, I was blown away how heavy those extensions were. 1/4" SS plate is not a light weight item...:-) It looks like the holes at 2 1/4" on center were about right....:-)
__________________
Jmolan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2008, 21:05   #35
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Mid-Willamette Valley area, Oregon
Boat: Searunner 34 Trimaran
Posts: 76
Send a message via Skype™ to Rann
Jack,

I just fired off an email to my ham friend who probably is in the know on these items. I hope to hear back form him soon. When I do, I will report to the forum what I find out.

Yes, I know how heavy that stainless is, and in 316, it ain't cheap! I found a good source in Southern California where I can get it for a decent price. When I get down there soon, I will be buying what I need for the shrouds and headstay. Most of the other chainplates I have are in pretty good shape.

I need to send you a private email. Do you monitor the one I have on file for you?

Thanks,

Rann
__________________
Rann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2008, 21:06   #36
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 126
One thing I do know about lightning is that there is no telling which direction it is going to go. Theoretically it will take the path of least resistance. I would guess that if the stays were synthetic, even wet, and the mast were well grounded it would choose the mast.

I have been thinking the same thing about threading an SSB antenna up the middle of the back stay. Now this is purely theoretical on the antenna but an Icom 710 or 802 puts out 150 watts max. Hopefully most of it is radiated as signal but even if it was all converted to heat it would be spread over at least 23' of antenna. Depending on the tuning and frequency there will be some localized heating but I don't think it will be enough in a properly tuned antenna to damage the fiber. I run a KW through a ground mounted vertical and it is just perceptibly warm after an hour of fairly constant rag chewing. Now how RF effects UHMW I don't know. After I finish the creep test I may thread a wire up the sample and blast it with a couple of KW just to find out. :-)

I do see two physical challenges though. When you open the braid to insert the wire you eliminate the set that was put in by Hampidjan so it will have to be stretched to get it back and the diameter will be greater so the length will be shorter. You would have to compensate for that in the cut length.
__________________
Gashmore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2008, 21:23   #37
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Mid-Willamette Valley area, Oregon
Boat: Searunner 34 Trimaran
Posts: 76
Send a message via Skype™ to Rann
Gashmore,

Perhaps the antenna wire could be lashed to the outside of the synthetic backstay with zip ties or something similar. Then the integrity of how the line comes from Hampidjan would not be violated. Or perhaps a sacrificial outer cover could go over the line for UV protection and it could house the antenna wire between it and the Dux. The idea of having the feed point of a backstay antenna wire coming as close as possible to my SGC tuner is certainly appealing, at least in terms of ideal location of the tuner and the backstay.

When you get to the point of zapping a KW into the line, it will be interesting to see your test results.

Rann
K5KKA
__________________
Rann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2008, 20:04   #38
Registered User
 
Jmolan's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Mexico/Alaska/Oregon
Boat: 34' Searunner Tri
Posts: 712
Add on's

I recently received a very informative PDF from Hapidjan Iceland from a friend of mine over there. If any one would like it just PM me you email and I will shoot it to you.
I am going to post a number of photos of what I did today. I had a very enjoyable day. After returning from church, I did not want to go down to the boatyard. I am trying to keep the laboring down there to 6 days a week anyhow for now..:-)
So in Photo #1 (Ill try to just call them by number) This is what I was looking at on my seaside deck. All of the strait lines are the old wires, and the snake like stuff is the Dux as it has been in a loose coil.
Photo #2 shows some of my collection. from left to right I have, an original (old) turnbuckle and toggle, next is the other end of the same wire. next is a 2 year (approx) Precourt eye with a stitch splice and SS wire seizing. You can see the faded Anodizing. I am unsure exactly what part of the winter I installed this running back stay. But I do know it has been through two grueling summers here in San Carlos Mexico. It has not been under a load all that time. It has been laying on the mast on the ground, exposed to all kinds of nasty crap in the dirt and flash flooding from last summer. looking close at it I see no problems. I will show it later.
Next is a Precourt distributor I used as the lower part of the back-stay dead-eye. Same on age and condition. Next two are some Colligo fittings I will be using. The one with a splice is the lower end of one of the back-stays. has a Brummel splice and looks fine.
Shot #3 shows 2 Precourt eyes that were the top of my running back-stays. I will take these apart later and show you what they looked like.
Shot #4 shows what will be using rigging my cutter. On the left is the standard Colligo dead-eye. Notice you can use the upper fitting as either a pinned eye or a dead-eye. The fitting in the middle is for my split bridle back stay. The straps a titanium,(also Colligo) high tech meets old design and mixes it up some here stuff...:-) The little guys are the deadeys for life lines and what ever you can dream up. I understand Marlow is stretching Dynex now in 5mm size. If it is true it is a huge hit as you can rigg all kinds of smaller boats...:-)
Shot #5 This is the standard Brummel set up. I would encourage anyone who wants to try this to get some softer 12 braid like dynex or sprectra and practice. I have done maybe a 100 or more of these eye splices. Like anything I can make it look easy now, but it is because I do not get lost, I have learned just how much I can get away with on the measurements, and there are any number of tricks to get it right. There is no substitute for experience. If you try with Dux you would get pretty frustrated I think because it is some stiff stuff and does not give...I mean it does not give a bloody micro mini inch!...:-) It is really fun to do with soft stuff, it is so easy having a hollow braid!
Shot #6 shows the splice snugged up and the deadey in place. This is one spot that will kill you if you got something wrong. Too tight or too loose will not work, it's gotta be just right "sweet spot" as far as the size of the eye before you insert the deadeye fitting. The grooves in the Colligo fittings are much deeper than the Precourt fittings. That is great for protecting the line and getting a secure fit, but it makes the eye size and splice just that much more critical to get right ( and a fair amount tougher to get the deadeye into the eyespilce, even when you get it right)...
I am going to post this as I am afraid of loosing it, and will pick up in another post.......
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	PC060231.JPG
Views:	204
Size:	191.5 KB
ID:	6099   Click image for larger version

Name:	PC060227.JPG
Views:	256
Size:	222.2 KB
ID:	6100  

Click image for larger version

Name:	PC060232.JPG
Views:	224
Size:	220.5 KB
ID:	6101   Click image for larger version

Name:	PC060233.JPG
Views:	230
Size:	185.9 KB
ID:	6102  

Click image for larger version

Name:	PC070234.JPG
Views:	205
Size:	212.7 KB
ID:	6103   Click image for larger version

Name:	PC070236.JPG
Views:	200
Size:	200.4 KB
ID:	6104  

__________________
Jmolan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2008, 20:24   #39
Registered User
 
Jmolan's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Mexico/Alaska/Oregon
Boat: 34' Searunner Tri
Posts: 712
On-going

Shot #1 ...here I inserted the chopstick inside the hollow core and taped the tail to be buried in.
Shot#2....Show the tail exiting. I exit just a bit farther up the line than the tail is long. Now I have pull down the cover as far as I can. Just scrunch down against the eye as much as you can.
Shot#3...pull out 8 strands alternating right and left between where the cover scrunchy is and the end of the tail. Cut the strands. This gives you the taper.
Shot#4...the taper just before pulling the cover back over it.
Shot#5...the finished splice. Actually not a very good shot as I can I did not work out the kinks and yank and pull and clean it up. Like any splice you have to work the strands and fibers to realign things and make them as neat and close original as possible.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	PC070240.JPG
Views:	191
Size:	217.9 KB
ID:	6105   Click image for larger version

Name:	PC070242.JPG
Views:	184
Size:	228.4 KB
ID:	6106  

Click image for larger version

Name:	PC070244.JPG
Views:	194
Size:	209.7 KB
ID:	6107   Click image for larger version

Name:	PC070245.JPG
Views:	189
Size:	229.3 KB
ID:	6108  

Click image for larger version

Name:	PC070246.JPG
Views:	192
Size:	212.9 KB
ID:	6109  
__________________
Jmolan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2008, 20:51   #40
Registered User
 
Jmolan's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Mexico/Alaska/Oregon
Boat: 34' Searunner Tri
Posts: 712
McDonald Brummel

In the last series of showing a Brummel splice, the double locking tucks were done by bringing the tail of the entire shroud back through. But wait a minute! What if we have a deadeye spliced on the end of the of the shroud now? How to get the thing done using only one end.

Shot #1 shows the initial set up. Pretty straight fwd. But magic is about to happen. I have found it really help to get this memorized. When the tail is,
where the standing part is etc.
Shot #2 before this shot you take the deadeye and insert again (just like you do to measure the original eye sizing) Snug it all down on this first tuck and make a mark on the tail. This mark will become the locking tuck spot. This is where you are going to blow it. Too tight or too loose...well anyhow. Pull out the deadeye and make the next tuck as shown in this shot.
Shot#3 Now come the fun part. Pull on the tail until the tuck rolls over on itself. You will have created a "football". What you have is a line that is rolled over 180 degrees with a very small hole in it. You need to take something like a good fid and open up this hole. Do not disturb the fibers, just shove something tapered in there and work it around. Make the whole as large as you can. The line is tough, just don't mess up the strands...:-)Shot #4...take the eye splice on the right and put it through the football. It is real important that you go in the right. If you follow the layout here you will be fine. If you get a bit lost or frustrated and roll the tail 180 degrees, it will never work. Here is where it will be good to have experience with softer laid stuff. The Dux looks impossible to get the eye through this opening....but it does....:-)
Shot #5 Shows the eye going through the hole (just so you will see I am not doing magic)
Shot#6 This is the magic moment. If you have lined it up right, and kept thing oriented, as you pull the eye through the football and continue to work it down, the foot ball re-inverts back 180 degrees and all the fibers are lying here just like original. And now you have a second tuck done. The arrow shows the location of the original football. First time you do one of these you will be amazed I bet. From here you just proceed to put the deadeye in the eye (and find out just how close you are) and tuck and taper the tail...piece of cake really...:-)
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	PC070249.JPG
Views:	236
Size:	166.3 KB
ID:	6110   Click image for larger version

Name:	PC070250.JPG
Views:	241
Size:	176.7 KB
ID:	6111  

Click image for larger version

Name:	PC070251.JPG
Views:	238
Size:	198.5 KB
ID:	6112   Click image for larger version

Name:	PC070252.JPG
Views:	218
Size:	174.1 KB
ID:	6113  

Click image for larger version

Name:	PC070253.JPG
Views:	225
Size:	149.6 KB
ID:	6114   Click image for larger version

Name:	PC070254.JPG
Views:	233
Size:	173.4 KB
ID:	6115  

__________________
Jmolan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2008, 21:08   #41
Registered User
 
Jmolan's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Mexico/Alaska/Oregon
Boat: 34' Searunner Tri
Posts: 712
mo mo

Shot 1 shows a 2 year old line with a Precourt eye. I want to use the larger radius ed Colligo Eyes (called Terminators) And since this was a running back stay I had plenty of room to play with as far as extending the deadeye lashing lines (is that we we will cal them?) But rather than just cut off the thing I thought I would unlay the splice and reuse it with another fitting. Keep in mind this is 2 year old Dux that has been through Holy Hell at least 6 months out of the year in the Mexican Sonora Desert. UV wise I would bet we rate one of the highest anywhere. Maybe I will look that up by golly....:-)
Anyhow I get off track often sorry.
Shot#2 shows the tail pulled. I notice right off that 2 years ago I did not use as long of tails as I do now. .And I am still using short than Brion Toss recommends. He wants like 72 times the diameter of the line as the tail length.
Shot #3 shows the deadeye fitting removed. From here I just did the splice steps backwards. It too me a minute or two of some brain twisting to get behind that. I forgot to photo it. Anyhow I went ahead and re-splice a much larger fitting into the same area, and had the advantage of already having a tapered tail to bury....:-
Shot 4 shows some of what I got done today. Upper and lower shrouds in 7mm, and a head stay in 9mm. I forgot to throw in the backstay in 9mm. I still have the baby stay and aft lowers to do. But tomorrow is another boatyard day. Gotta get the deck equipment nailed down.
All told this was about 5 hours work. My father is here and watched the whole time. He was a logger back in the 50's and just could not believe what he was seeing, and the stories that went with what he was seeing....he had old wire and young crazy men logging stories, and I had young crazy Bearing Sea fisherman stories, and how differnt it is for my son who is now full shre deck hand up there, and how things have changed from when I was on deck with all wires.... As we talked, and I worked, it was a special time I think for both of us.
I think Brion Toss's has some huge implications in this paper here.

Brion Toss Yacht Riggers Fairleads Newsletter

I can hardly wait to get this stuff up in the air working...:-)
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	PC070258.JPG
Views:	189
Size:	186.4 KB
ID:	6116   Click image for larger version

Name:	PC070259.JPG
Views:	163
Size:	204.9 KB
ID:	6117  

Click image for larger version

Name:	PC070260.JPG
Views:	168
Size:	266.4 KB
ID:	6118   Click image for larger version

Name:	PC070262.JPG
Views:	185
Size:	223.5 KB
ID:	6119  

__________________
Jmolan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-12-2008, 22:27   #42
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Mid-Willamette Valley area, Oregon
Boat: Searunner 34 Trimaran
Posts: 76
Send a message via Skype™ to Rann
Jack,

Fabulous job! Thanks for all the detail, explanations, and photos. You have given us a lot to digest.

I would like a copy of the pdf from Hapidjan. I believe you have my personal email address; if not let me know on this forum and I will get it to you.

Thanks,

Rann
__________________
Rann is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2008, 01:06   #43
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 275
Does anyone think it will be possible to use a "poured" type fitting with this rope?Of course epoxy, instead of lead.
Will it be possible to use Norseman type fittings?
__________________
nonam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2008, 07:41   #44
Registered User
 
Jmolan's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Mexico/Alaska/Oregon
Boat: 34' Searunner Tri
Posts: 712
Nope/Well...sorta

Nonam

THE ANATOMY

Oregon State University Forest Engineering Department Synthetic Rope Research in Logging

Here is a couple area's they have tried poured sockets. I do not know anything about them. The one report is pretty intereting stuff.

I would question why someone would want to do this over a simple splice that will test out to be near 100 % of the rope strength?
__________________
Jmolan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-12-2008, 08:10   #45
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 126
Interesting. One of those reports from OSU doesn't look very good for potting. Line broke at 20% of MBL as it entered the potted fitting. Probably a stress riser at the transition to epoxy. I also don't like the tuck splicing they demonstrate. Dux is to slipery. A locking splice like a Brummel would make me feel more comfortable.

Another report confirmed my thoughts on thimble size. It needs to be at least 5 rope diameters to even out the tension across all the fibers.
__________________

__________________
Gashmore is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
rigging

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Synthetic Oil vs Conventional Oil GnarlyMon Construction, Maintenance & Refit 20 26-11-2012 06:56
All-New Rigging from Scratch - But How ? Ryan H Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 5 04-10-2011 14:18
Rigging Inspection Needed - Bristol, RI Iain Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 13 15-08-2011 15:53
Hammocks and Stress on Standing Rigging rhumbunctious Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 8 06-08-2011 10:08
Affordable Synthetic Standing Rigging jfranta Commercial Posts 0 23-07-2011 07:09


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

RV & Travel Trailer Communities

Our RV & Travel Trailer sites encompasses virtually all types of Recreational Vehicles, from brand-specific to general RV communities.

» More about our RV Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002-2012 Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 18:34.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.