World Wide Pump Out?

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Like I wrote earlier... "such a profound level of ignorance related to basic biology, that I don't even know where to begin."

RR,

Please do yourself a favor and read up on some basic biology and the ecosystem before making further comments related to this subject.

Begin here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecosystem

Give me a break.

For someone who claims to be so learned on the topic, read this...

http://www.bio.huji.ac.il/upload/59(1).pdf

I include a direct quote from the summary of this paper for the benefit of those who cannot spare the time...

Salinity in itself appears to be less signi¢cant; in FEMSRE 725 5-12-01
Y. Rozen, S. Belkin/FEMS Microbiology Reviews 25 (2001) 513^529524
indeed, when supplied with sufficient organic nutrients, E. coli can grow in seawater almost as well as it does in rich laboratory media and out-compete marine strains [59].

While there are other stressors on bacteria survival in the marine environment, it is certainly possible, that enteric bacteria, (the stuff in ones poop), can thrive in seawater.

Yes, we are exposed to bacteria all the time, have it on our skin, and in our bodies. Most Kindergarten children know this.

But anyone with only a grade school knowledge, knows that bacteria can be highly adaptable, can mutate to a form that we have no or little built up defense to, and are more likely to wipe out humankind than nuclear warheads or asteroid collisions.

Before there was a Typhoid Mary, there wasn't.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Mallon

[Delancey]

While I concede the guy who WORKS IN A BOATYARD might know a thing or two about the actual mechanical process of pumping poop overboard, I'm going with the guy who is a REGISTERED NURSE who works in a HOSPITAL as far as what actually happens to the poop after it's in the water.

[Mike OReilly]

RR, the paper is nearly two decades old now, is a review of existing literature which is now even older, and is focused on near-shore environments. It does state salinity was less of a factor in degradation, but neither was it insignificant and did improve as higher levels of “sea water” were used. But it also notes a number of other mechanisms of degradation which are more important.

No one (well, almost no one) is questioning that people shouldn’t be pooping over the side in near-shore areas. It’s why a growing number of developed countries are adopting similar regs found here in Canada and the USA (and that seems to include countries in the Med). Of course, enforcement is a different issue, but the regs are there or coming.

I personally find it offensive and sad to consider that those without some sort of holding or treatment system do dump their crap over the side in enclosed, low-flow areas. They seem as ignorant of biology and chemistry as you appear to be. Ecosystems do have limits, and it is typical human arrogance to believe we can do whatever we want to this planet and still come out smelling like roses .

The point is though, the fanatical drive for zero pollution is a philosophical stance, not one based in science. All functioning ecosystems can manage some level of pollution from the critters that inhabit it. We are just another critter. Ecosystems can be overwhelmed by deer or whale poop as well as human. There’s nothing special about human poop (even Yankie poop) — except that it is more dangerous to humans, which is why it should not be dumped near people.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Give me a break.

For someone who claims to be so learned on the topic, read this...

http://www.bio.huji.ac.il/upload/59(1).pdf

I include a direct quote from the summary of this paper for the benefit of those who cannot spare the time...

Salinity in itself appears to be less signi¢cant; in FEMSRE 725 5-12-01
Y. Rozen, S. Belkin/FEMS Microbiology Reviews 25 (2001) 513^529524
indeed, when supplied with sufficient organic nutrients, E. coli can grow in seawater almost as well as it does in rich laboratory media and out-compete marine strains [59].

While there are other stressors on bacteria survival in the marine environment, it is certainly possible, that enteric bacteria, (the stuff in ones poop), can thrive in seawater.

Yes, we are exposed to bacteria all the time, have it on our skin, and in our bodies. Most Kindergarten children know this.

But anyone with only a grade school knowledge, knows that bacteria can be highly adaptable, can mutate to a form that we have no or little built up defense to, and are more likely to wipe out humankind than nuclear warheads or asteroid collisions.

Before there was a Typhoid Mary, there wasn't.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Mallon

You might also wanna read up on Howard Hughes and OCD.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

You might also wanna read up on Howard Hughes and OCD.

You claim others are ignorant and yet resort to childish retorts when faced with facts that disprove your position?

What a piece of work.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

You claim others are ignorant and yet resort to childish retorts when faced with facts that disprove your position?

What a piece of work.

I'm very serious.... you should read up on Howard Hughes and OCD.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

RR, the paper is nearly two decades old now, is a review of existing literature which is now even older, and is focused on near-shore environments. It does state salinity was less of a factor in degradation, but neither was it insignificant and did improve as higher levels of “sea water” were used. But it also notes a number of other mechanisms of degradation which are more important.

No one (well, almost no one) is questioning that people shouldn’t be pooping over the side in near-shore areas. It’s why a growing number of developed countries are adopting similar regs found here in Canada and the USA (and that seems to include countries in the Med). Of course, enforcement is a different issue, but the regs are there or coming.

I personally find it offensive and sad to consider that those without some sort of holding or treatment system do dump their crap over the side in enclosed, low-flow areas. They seem as ignorant of biology and chemistry as you appear to be. Ecosystems do have limits, and it is typical human arrogance to believe we can do whatever we want to this planet and still come out smelling like roses .

The point is though, the fanatical drive for zero pollution is a philosophical stance, not one based in science. All functioning ecosystems can manage some level of pollution from the critters that inhabit it. We are just another critter. Ecosystems can be overwhelmed by deer or whale poop as well as human. There’s nothing special about human poop (even Yankie poop) — except that it is more dangerous to humans, which is why it should not be dumped near people.

Correct, what that report indicates is that SMEs have known for a long time that the bacteria in human waste can thrive in seawater for a long time. Yup, long enough for our great great great great grandchildren to enjoy.

So if I'm so ignorant, what does that make those who claimed I was wrong? More learned, but less smart?

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Correct, what that report indicates is that SMEs have known for a long time that the bacteria in human waste can thrive in seawater for a long time. Yup, long enough for our great great great great grandchildren to enjoy.

So if I'm so ignorant, what does that make those who claimed I was wrong? More learned, but less smart?

The study does not state E. Coli can “thrive” in sea water. It does cite some research that indicates it can exist and even grow, although this paper also cites research indicating exactly the opposite outcome (that it does not live long or expand). This is a survey paper that cites the range of existing research to date. That date is now almost 20 years old, and the research it cites is even older. How about citing some current research. That would be far more compelling.

In addition, the paper notes some research indicates some concentration of bacteria measured up to 300 days out (as low as 8% in 100% sea water if my memory is correct). Assuming standard generations being 20 years, that would mean you claim this E Coli will be around in:

20 years X 365 days X 5 generations = 36,500 days

So for you to be “right" you have to assume no further degradation happens in the additional 36,200 days .

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Correct, what that report indicates is that SMEs have known for a long time that the bacteria in human waste can thrive in seawater for a long time. Yup, long enough for our great great great great grandchildren to enjoy.

E Coli live in the intestines of every mammal and bird on earth -- including marine mammals, and seagulls. Seagull crap has similar rates of antibiotic-resistant E Coli as human crap does.

I wouldn't go so far as to argue that because coastal waters are full of seagull, dolphin, and seal crap, that we should dump away wherever, and no one here has made such a suggestion. Let's not add to the concentration of pollution where people are swimming.

But flushing a marine toilet a mile from anywhere people are swimming, has zero effect on their health. That's just a fact.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Correct, what that report indicates is that SMEs have known for a long time that the bacteria in human waste can thrive in seawater for a long time. Yup, long enough for our great great great great grandchildren to enjoy.

So if I'm so ignorant, what does that make those who claimed I was wrong? More learned, but less smart?

So.... you actually believe that your poo hangs around for over 100 years everytime you flush your toilet, and mutates into lethal strains of bacteria.

Incredible.

[Viking Sailor]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Give me a break.

For someone who claims to be so learned on the topic, read this...

http://www.bio.huji.ac.il/upload/59(1).pdf

I include a direct quote from the summary of this paper for the benefit of those who cannot spare the time...

Salinity in itself appears to be less signi¢cant; in FEMSRE 725 5-12-01
Y. Rozen, S. Belkin/FEMS Microbiology Reviews 25 (2001) 513^529524
indeed, when supplied with sufficient organic nutrients, E. coli can grow in seawater almost as well as it does in rich laboratory media and out-compete marine strains [59].

While there are other stressors on bacteria survival in the marine environment, it is certainly possible, that enteric bacteria, (the stuff in ones poop), can thrive in seawater.

Yes, we are exposed to bacteria all the time, have it on our skin, and in our bodies. Most Kindergarten children know this.

But anyone with only a grade school knowledge, knows that bacteria can be highly adaptable, can mutate to a form that we have no or little built up defense to, and are more likely to wipe out humankind than nuclear warheads or asteroid collisions.

Before there was a Typhoid Mary, there wasn't.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Mallon

Another direct quote from your above reference:

E. coli was found to be a successful competitor in rich media but a very poor one under the low nutrient concentrations characterizing natural seawater.

Since it is the natural seawater environment we are discussing, it would seem that this quote is more relevant.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

So.... you actually believe that your poo hangs around for over 100 years everytime you flush your toilet, and mutates into lethal strains of bacteria.

Incredible.

No.

I said bacteria can thrive for 100 years.

And that's a fact Jack.

The majority of the matter will be broken down long ago. That is not what is going to hurt you. Its the bacteria, and they can hang around an awful long time.

If you are a registered nurse, you would know this.

I have the sneaking suspicion that you are full of the stuff we are talking about.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

No.

I said bacteria can thrive for 100 years.

And that's a fact Jack.

The majority of the matter will be broken down long ago. That is not what is going to hurt you. Its the bacteria, and they can hang around an awful long time.

Epic kookiness.

[sailorboy1]

AND ..................... American boater poop causes global warming!

[jonnypaget]

Australia unfortunately