Heating and Cooking

[D_e_n_n_i_s]

I just wanted to quickly post an update on the Origo unit. I had shipping scratches on the front of it and Origo is shipping me a new one directly and are covering all of the costs, which is no small matter when it costs $150 shipping. I've been very impressed with their customer service so far. I've actually gone through Defender so I haven't spoken with Origo directly, but Defender and Origo have stepped up to the plate. I'll let everyone know how it goes.

[D_e_n_n_i_s]

I wanted to provide an update as I've learned some hard lessons through the "process" of buying an Origo stove/oven through the Defender website. Sorry in advance for the long post, but it has been a long time coming.

At first, Defender was very cheerful and helpful in helping me with my order. The first unit was scratched from one side to the other so I contacted Defender and asked if I could just get a replacement faceplate as this was scratched and I would be happy to replace it myself. They very courteously contacted Origo to learn that the faceplate was not a replaceable unit and worked with Origo to have them send me a replacement.

The replacement was in much worse shape than the original as not only was the box damaged, but the unit had a corner bent (pushed in), scratches, obvious damage, etc.

On the second time around that I contacted Defender, I spoke with a lady that was pleasant and said that I should have received paperwork for shipping the units back to Origo. I advised her that I did not receive this paperwork in either box and she said that she would get the info from Origo and contact me back.

After about a week I called Defender back and they acted like it was news to them that there was no paperwork for the return, but again advised that they would get the shipping info and get back with me.

I called again and spoke with a gentleman that I said I should ship the two units back and buy the Origo 6000 locally. He was very ugly about it so I said that I would be happy to do so, but didn't know of any place locally where I could purchase Origo products. I advised him that I still had not received the paperwork for shipping the units to Origo and asked where I could buy an origo unit locally. He said that he would check on both of these questions ... drum roll ... never heard back from him.

Having Defender's phone number now added to my phone contacts, I called them several days later and spoke to a woman in customer service that asked me if I knew what it cost to ship these units. I explained that I did since I had paid for the original $150 shipping charge. She then actually told me that with the shipping costs that Defender had lost its profit margin and that it was a huge trouble to handle shipping these units. I did mention that she was in customer service, right? She told me
that I had to buy the units locally. We left the very nasty conversation with her letting me know that she would find the shipping information and call me back with it. Drum roll .... never heard back from her again.

At this point, I decided to contact Origo directly. My first E-Mail went to Kay at Swego, which was the wrong place, but was kindly forwarded to the service/warranty department. Now, so far the only information that Origo had received was from Defender so the first response was what one would expect under those circumstances.

I'm copying and pasting the E-Mail directly here:
Kay & Mr. Sanderson, I have spoken to Cassy at Defender extensively on this issue. (Remember everything being discussed here is being based on the information that I have been provided.) The first oven the customer received according to Cassy only had a slight mark (ding) on the front so to be fair I sent another replacement. The second stove according to Cassy only had a mark on it made from the Styrofoam that could have been buffed out? At that point (see below) Defender made the decision to
ask the customer to purchase the oven from another (local) source so he could visually inspect it and be satisfied that it was OK. This has nothing to do with the cost of shipping as mentioned. Mr. Sanderson, I can not send you another oven until you ship back the two ovens you received through Defender. I need you to return the two stoves to us so we can examine them and make a determination for ourselves as to what is going on. We need to determine that there is a packaging problem/quality issue and will be glad to replace the oven with a new one and have our quality team solve the issue. BUT WE MUST GET THE OLD STOVES BACK FOR EVALUATION FIRST. The fact that you're still holding onto both units is causing a lot of problems. Please use our Fedex account# (Provided, But Deleted Here) to ship them back so you don't incur any shipping cost. Please write on the outside of the boxes Attn: Warranty Department, RA (# Deleted Here Too).

Here is my E-Mail response on a Thursday:
Thanks for the information. There was no paperwork in either of the units regarding return shipping and Defender said that they needed to get that information from you and would contact me with it. I didn’t hear from them so I contacted them yesterday. They seemed surprised to learn there was no paperwork in the boxes even though I had mentioned that to them during a previous conversation and was told that I would be contacted with this information. Again, they said that they were going to get with you to get that information and contact me back. I have yet to be contacted by them on shipping – just so we are clear why I have both units onboard my boat. Trust me, on a boat they are quite in the way and I’m happy to send these back to you.

I just called a Fedex shop close to where I work and learned that they are open on Saturday from 9am – 4:30pm. I will deliver both units to this Fedex location on Saturday and will give them your Fedex account# (Fedex account# **Deleted**) to ship them back. I take it that I need no additional authorization or paperwork for them to bill the shipping to your Fedex account?

Federal Express Corporation‎
3736 Salisbury Road, Jacksonville, FL 32216-6112
(904) 332-5400
Saturday 9am - 4:30pm

Should that be shipped to your Florida location? From your website I see that it is located at:
2000 North Andrews Avenue Ext.
Pompano Beach, Florida 33069

How would you recommend that I ship the units back to you, i.e. ground, registered receipt, two-day, overnight, etc. – I don’t want to incur unnecessary expense to your account and I believe from my experience with shipping that ground shipping to a commercial location usually only takes two days, but you may want this shipped with receipt tracking.

As you note below, I’ll make sure to label the outside of the boxes with: Attn: Warranty Department, RA **Deleted**.

I’ll tape up the first unit and have already made sure that the damaged box is very well taped so it just needs the outside label.

Let me further explain the damage on both units since you don’t seem to be getting the full story from Defender. The first unit had vertical scratches on the faceplate from the far left side to the far right side about a ¼” high, which was clearly caused by packing due to the symmetrical vertical lines from one side to the other. The depth of the grooves was my concern since you could feel the depth with your fingers so I contacted Defender and asked if perhaps I could just get a replacement faceplate and would be happy to install it myself. Defender advised me shortly thereafter that they had checked with you and the part was not a replaceable one. I asked if the metal was stainless steel all the way through or plated as I would be concerned with rust in a marine environment. They did not answer my question, but instead said that they would ship me another unit.

The second unit was received at my parents’ house, just as the first unit was (I live on a boat and this is the best location for delivery) and my father noted that the box was damaged. This was noted on the delivery slip, which should be easily pulled for verification. I saw the damage and tried to look into the unit through the hole, but I really couldn’t see the unit well that way. When I took the unit to the boat and opened it up, the top stove section wouldn’t close and lock. I looked further and noticed that the right side was crushed in a bit. There were the same scratches on the front and also on the back, but the grooves were not deep to the touch so those could easily be buffed out, but the other damage from shipping made me want to ship the second unit back.

Defender said that they would check with you and get back to me, but again days went by with no word so I contacted them and was told to consider buying the unit locally. I asked if there was a place where I could purchase the product locally as I wasn’t aware this was an option for me, but no direct answer was given with only the usual deferment that the gentlemen with whom I spoke would get with the lady with whom I initially spoke and they would get back with me. The lady that initially
helped me was very friendly and helpful so I don’t know if the message wasn’t relayed to her or why I didn’t receive a call yet again for several days.

I’ve purchased thousands of dollars of merchandise from Defender in only the past couple of years, but haven’t dealt with them for a long timeframe like West Marine and other maritime merchants with whom I have decades of relationship. The irony is that I was about to place an order for a good bit over $10,000 to finish outfitting my sailboat with them, but West Marine’s prices are close enough that I’ll continue to buy from them instead after this experience. I’ve been pleased with your help, but Defender has been so focused on this single sale that they’ve actually become harsh in dealing with me, alienating me as a customer. They’ve actually pointed out to me that they’ve lost their profit margin with the shipping costs and now just want me to return everything and buy from someone else. I’m inclined to agree with them, but I want to work this out one way or another as I really do believe you have the best product on the market and want to buy it.

After you have had a chance to inspect the units and are ready to ship a new unit to me, since you are so close to Jacksonville perhaps I can help make delivery easier for you. If you have a driver coming through Jacksonville, I’m happy to make arrangements to meet with them or work with you in any way to facilitate shipping to keep your costs down on this. If I know the day of delivery, I should be able to take another day off from work to meet the driver wherever would be most convenient.
Please feel free to call me Dennis. Again, I appreciate all of your help with this !!

Thanks,
Dennis

- Barry replied:
Dennis, Please ship them back to the address below my name, Attn: warranty department RA **Deleted**-Two day or ground is sufficient.
I'm sorry for all the problems you've had with shipping damage to the ovens. When we receive the ovens they will be evaluated by our warranty technicians and quality manager to see how this can be corrected.

Origo products are stocked in the Elkhart Indiana warehouse so the replacement oven will ship the best method from there. Once we evaluate the ovens and determine what's going on, I will have a new oven shipped to you. Please provide the address that you want the oven shipped to including a phone number in case the carrier needs to contact you.

Kind Regards,
Barry

- I replied that I had the boxes taped and labeled and gave him my contact info for mailing the replacement unit as well as my phone number

- Once the units were received a few days later, Barry replied:
The ovens arrived and were inspected and your concerns were verified. I noticed the dents to the front, bottom, sides and the scratches, but also noticed that the outer glass was not centered causing the door to not open all the way. I have put in a new order (**Deleted** see PDF) that will ship tomorrow. I put in the notes to double box and strap to a small pallet for added protection. Please make sure to inspect the oven when you receive it and please let me know if you have any questions or concerns.

You should see your new oven by Monday. I put your phone number in the order notes in case the shipper needs to contact you.

- I received the unit and it was in excellent shape so I sent Barry the following E-Mail:
I wanted to touch base with you to let you know at just how pleased I am with my new Origo 6000 unit that arrived this week. It is not scratched up or damaged and I already have it onboard. I’ll be working this weekend to sand and varnish some wood to install it on the gimbals. In the meantime, I’m going to go through your dealers list and find someone besides Defender to buy all of the accessories for it. This gave me a chance to check out your website to learn that you make the Cruisair unit
that I have aboard and have been enjoying trouble-free for almost a half decade now. The quality of your products makes buying them an easy choice, which is often not the case with marine merchandise. I can’t begin to express my gratitude for how you stepped in, connected directly with me and made a loyal customer. I will gladly be sharing my experience and my enthusiasm for buying from your company both in forum thread and personal contact. Thank you so much for all of your help !!! Please
thank your team for their help in making this such a pleasurable experience !!!

- Barry replied:
I'm glad that you received your oven in good shape and this is finally a done deal. You may want to check out orders@swego.com for you oven accessories. Your contact at that e-mail address will be Kay. I have had good luck dealing with them. Also thank you very much for your kind words. Being that I work in the service/warranty department, it is a rare thing to get a positive response. I understand that when people call or contact me they are already upset. Being a consumer myself I understand this. But in my years here I have always tried to stand behind my company and support the customer at the same time. May you have many years of use out of your Dometic products.

Again if you ever have any need to contact me, feel free to do so.
Kind Regards,
Barry

[D_e_n_n_i_s]

Needless to say, I'm thrilled with the Origo customer service and extremely
disappointed by how Defender.com changed their tune when faced with adversity and essentially dropped me as a customer, leaving me to fend for myself with a product damaged in shipping. This is especially perplexing to me as it was done by a web-based site that by necessity does business via shipping products.

Customer Service cuts both ways. Not only am I no longer a Defender customer (after spending thousands with them over just a few years), but when I pulled my Kenyon stove, I found that I could actually fit the Origo 2-burner recessed stove in its place. Soooo, I just ordered a new alcohol/electric Origo burner (uses the same alcohol containers as the Origo 6000) as well as all the accessories with plenty of backups for the Origo 6000.

[D_e_n_n_i_s]

I'm sanding and varnishing the teak where the stoves will go so once I have the Origo units installed and a chance to use them, I'll report on how they work.

One thing I am looking into is the type of alcohol to use with the units. Barry was a huge help with this so I'll post his reply that pertains to the various types of alcohol here for everyone's benefit. Using anhydrous alcohol solves the problem with water in the cabin from burning alcohol and eliminates smoke/soot. Another concern is burning denatured alcohol, which by definition contains poison - usually methanol. You can buy anhydrous alcohol (200 proof so extremely little water), which is pure ethanol without any additives so fumes will not add toxins to the cabin either from partial burning or evaporation. It's considered potable (i.e. drinkable) by the goverment, which levies a heavy excise tax on it. I'm looking into how to get an exemption for the Federal excise tax and will let ya know how that goes as well.

From Barry:
Here is a breakdown of alcohol by preference and the reasons why:

*1st choice: Pure ethanol makes a very good stove fuel, but it is much more expensive than denatured because it is potable. You can find it in liquor stores as grain alcohol; Graves grain alcohol and Everclear are some brand names, plus being pure ethanol it's oderless and sootless. Pure ethanol may be harder to find and more expensive than other fuels, but it is the fuel of choice if toxicity or environmental friendliness are at the top of your concerns.

2nd choice Denatured alcohol is the best all-around fuel for any stove that burns alcohol. It's cheap and available in most hardware stores such as Home Depot and Lowes, but only use if it's listed as oderless/sootless. Denatured alcohol is mostly ethanol with some methyl alcohol added to render it unfit for human consumption. It should be noted, though, that denatured alcohol does contain methanol (toxic, about 16%), methyl ethyl ketone (<1%), and methyl acetate (<1%) which makes it less environmentally friendly than pure ethanol.

Poor choice (don't use): Pure methanol (wood alcohol) burns very well in a stove, however it is toxic. It is readily absorbed through the skin or mucus membranes. Once in the body it is converted by the liver to formaldehyde a very poisonous chemical. Not a good choice for indoors, should only be considered for very open outdoor use.

Worse choice (don't use) Isopropyl (Rubbing alcohol) is 70% Isopropanol and 30% water. It has all the problems associated with burning pure Isopropanol with the added inconvenience of having 30% of its volume being non-combustible water. Not a very good choice.

[exterra]

Hello. This is for Hiracer, not sure why the quote box is not working. Your earlier post is quoted below. I know this is an older post however it is timely for me. Can you describe your dead simple, bullet proof system and how it is set up to exhaust the fumes. I like the sound of dead simple, bullet proof, warm and dry!

=Hiracer;423325]Because it works. Is that an adequate answer? It is for me.

2. My system is dead simple and therefore nearly bullet proof. That's important to me.

3. I remain warm and dry.

4. I don't get fumes in the cabin. The unit I have now was installed to address the fumes-in-the cabin problem. I've spent nearly every other weekend on the boat this winter and never had a hint of back draft. Winds up to 30 knots minimum, prolly more. I don't really check that kind of thing any more. It's sort of ho hum by now.

[/QUOTE][/QUOTE][/QUOTE][/COLOR]

[Hiracer]

Originally Posted by exterra

Hello. This is for Hiracer, not sure why the quote box is not working. Your earlier post is quoted below. I know this is an older post however it is timely for me. Can you describe your dead simple, bullet proof system and how it is set up to exhaust the fumes. I like the sound of dead simple, bullet proof, warm and dry!

[/QUOTE][/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

I have a Dickenson Newport. The unit comes with a fan to aid venting while starting the burner. Once the exhaust pipe heats up, it's self-venting without the fan.

The key is that the exhaust stack must be a minimum length and as straight as possible. I have a slight double bend, but not enough to count for much.

I also have a two-gallon gravity feed tank next to the heater, which I can fill by hand, but so far have always used the electric fuel pump. But I like the idea of the heater working even during a battery down event.

I hardly got out this summer, so I'm looking forward to the winter winds this season, which certainly are more dependable around here than the summer air.

Last winter I got hit by forty knot winds and never got any back draft--all day. But we did have to open the companionway because towards the end of the day it got a bit too hot inside.

DickinsonMarine.com - Diesel Heaters

[exterra]

Hey, thanks for the speedy reply to this old post. We will look into this more closely now that we are to the point of installing a heater. We may end up with a combination of things but your system seems a good way to go. How far above the deck does your chimney go given that you do not seem to have a back draft issue?

[Hiracer]

Above deck about two feet, including the "DP" cap. The stack above deck could be lower, as most boats certainly don't have stacks my height, and of course a lower heater installation inside will increase the total stack height. I wish I could have installed mine on the sole but it just would not work.

I think part of the reason why I don't have back draft issues is because I am fairly conscious about rotating my dorades so they always point into the wind. This keeps a positive pressure in the cabin.

[exterra]

Good to know on the dorades. We only have solar vents and we almost always have a small port open while sitting for ventilation. Two feet would be a bit high for our setup. We won't be able to install on the sole either which is one of the reasons we are still hemming and hawing....

[Hiracer]

Two modern 'improvements' I don't agree with: lack of dorades and cabin topsides that are not vertical.

As stated, I use dorades to keep positive air pressure in the cabin.

With vertical cabin topsides at anchor I can open ports during downpours in warm weather and not get wet inside. The ventilation is much appreciated. It's gotten so bad that many modern boats don't even have side ports, much less ones that are vertically oriented.

OK, rant over.

[Hiracer]

Originally Posted by exterra

Good to know on the dorades. We only have solar vents and we almost always have a small port open while sitting for ventilation. Two feet would be a bit high for our setup. We won't be able to install on the sole either which is one of the reasons we are still hemming and hawing....

I have one solar vent also, but the battery has gone dead and I never replaced it. Can't you orient the fan so it sucks air in, as opposed to out? That would be ideal.

[exterra]

Actually yes, we can change the fan orientation. Good idea. We have placed a visor over one port and one starboard side port so we can keep them open rain or shine, which has cut out our pnw mold issue so far, knock on wood. Hope to get back to the boat after some mid summer health issues, and the heater is near the top of the list so I appreciate your input.

[Hiracer]

Yes, controlling the PNW mold issue is no small matter. I've been lucky in that the dorades seem to do the trick for me..

Pretty sure you'll find that good heating will extend your season, which also goes a long ways to controlling mold. As I said, I use the boat more in the winter than summer. Less crowded bays in the San Juans and more wind.

Good luck with the health issues. Let us know how the heater issue shakes out.

[D_e_n_n_i_s]

It has been awhile and I wanted to rekindle the great discussions on heating in this thread ...

I yanked my Taylor 079D diesel heater out after it almost killed me. Seriously, the fumes caused my eyes to burn intensely and then I couldn't get enough oxygen into my lungs even while trying to breathe through my shirt so I ran outside to catch my breath. I opened everything up and it took a long time to clear out the fumes, even cranking up fans to blow it all out. I'm defnitely poisoned against diesel heaters at this point due to that experience. Granted, I'm sure my lack of maintenance and pushing the unit too hard are to blame, but that kind of thing just turns you away for a long time.

I need 16K BTU or more to heat the boat. In re-reading the thread, I saw where someone kindly posted that wood produces 9000 BTU's per pound. I suspect that most wood stoves put out more heat than this would suggest because many pounds of wood are used to heat the metal stove and pipes, which erradiate a lot more heat than just burning a pound of wood would directly put out.

I'm even re-thinking Dockhead's post (and others) that spoke about hydronic heating. Putting the cooker outside the cabin sounds great ...
I'm looking to revisit old options and consider new ones. The primary thing that is key for me is to have a CLOSED COMBUSTION CHAMBER and, to be more specific, an entirely CLOSED SYSTEM where there is NO WAY for fumes to get in the cabin. I get the arguments for pressure preventing this, but I'd prefer a truly closed chamber where pressure reversal can't allow fumes to get into the cabin.

A Direct-Vent heater (Vent to outside) is critical to having a closed system so this goes hand-in-hand with the above. Using a coaxial vent system (a pipe within a pipe) with a sealed combustion chamber seems like it would be beneficial, but I'm fine with separate pipes, though it would mean cutting another hole in the deck. In looking at all the arguments about the co-axial flues, the best argument was that a down draft would apply equal pressure to coaxial pipes, putting as much pressure on the inlet as the outlet. This would help prevent fumes coming into a cabin in an open system, but could help keep more steady oxygen flow to the fire even in a closed system.

The secondary argument is up for grabs with heat loss vs. heat gain in having the outside pipe be the vent pipe, putting heat into the cabin, and how valuable heating the incoming air in the inner pipe from that hot, outer pipe would be (It heats the cold air, but cools the hot pipe, which puts a lot of heat into the cabin). One argument that was never mentioned is that the cold air would, at least, be kept from cooling the cabin if the intake pipe were the inner pipe. I guess you would have to see how it plays out in reality and consider the first argument ...

I'll have to do more research on hydronic systems (circulates heated water in pipes with radiators at points to blow air over the water into the cabin). The system to heat the water would have to run autonomously, but I would like a system that I don't have to watch so I could consider using it to heat water for a shower (to take a shower without worrying about the system running away or going out) and perhaps even to run heat while ... dare I say it ... sleeping. OK, maybe I don't need heat while I sleep, but an occassional shower would keep the natives from running away.

I'm considering wood and other fuels so everything is back on the table ... A bit reluctant about kerosene and diesel now, but I may come back around to it one day ...

As far as the mold issue, I'm thinking that a closed system would help dry out the cabin and not dump any extra moisture into it. Although this doesn't "vent" the air, if there is sufficient heat, you could open up a hatch and the hot air should rise up and out to help remove moisture. I'm sure there's a lot more to consider here, especially the condensation dripping down because the cabin is so much hotter than the cold exterior ...

Thoughts/Suggestions on Closed Systems ???

[SPARK]

I think for the best through the night heat, a hydronic heater should be used.
If it is been heated from a diesel heater, this could be shut off at night and provided that the storage tank is large enough, you should have enough heat for most if not all the night.

Various sources can be used for heating the water as mentioned already. What has not been mentioned is a diesel generator. This can supply heat form an electric element as well as excess heat from the engine.

I think you would get a high effeciency from this source. You could charge batteries and keep the generator always highly loaded. A simple load control device could divert all excess power to electrical heat. This will also produce more themal heat from the engine, which will intern also heat the water.
If all this is linked to an automatic generator start and stop, you could hav a very efficient pumped hydronic unit.