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Old 04-07-2016, 18:06   #106
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Re: New Ocean Warrior is a Beauty

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Researching the facts ? Where do you get your empricial data? Or is it just a consensus of like minded people with an agenda. It's a big step to go from fishing to killing people, at least for me. An as for blaming the West, history has a lot of unintended consequences, but as the East rises you will see the carnage
US Naval War College, it's secretly full of petuli wearing vegan tree huggers.

https://www.usnwc.edu/Lucent/OpenPdf...tle=Creativity

How Somalia's Fishermen Became Pirates - TIME
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Old 04-07-2016, 18:12   #107
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Re: New Ocean Warrior is a Beauty

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I remember when Orange Roughy was found in Bass Strait for the first time in huge numbers. I remember the fishers maintaining it wouldn't be possible to wipe them out they were in such big numbers. And then I also remember in just a few years a real panic when scientists realised how quickly they were wiping them out. Led to a ten year ban to try to save the stocks. Last year after a ban of ten years, stocks have replentished to what they believe is only now sustainable with strict regulation.
Strict regulation... ie you won't be seeing that in the fish and chip shops ever again..

Bit like crayfish... when I was a pup we would have a ginormous cray most weekends in the summer ( ex Flinders, Mornington Peninsula )...
Now $100 a kilo....
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Old 04-07-2016, 18:18   #108
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Re: New Ocean Warrior is a Beauty

According to Wellwise, the CCAMLR has set a limit of 620000 tons on Krill fishing, they believe 4 million tons is sustainable, 2% for krill oil, the rest to feed Salmon, it makes them pink. Please note I always cite the web site for data.
Personally I would think it cheap to farm raise them in a controlled environment
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Old 04-07-2016, 18:25   #109
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Re: New Ocean Warrior is a Beauty

Scotts,
Please note the disclaimer on the bottom of the first page. It clearly states this is the opinion of Mr Vogel and not the US Naval War College
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Old 04-07-2016, 18:28   #110
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Re: New Ocean Warrior is a Beauty

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Researching the facts ? Where do you get your empricial data? Or is it just a consensus of like minded people with an agenda. It's a big step to go from fishing to killing people, at least for me. An as for blaming the West, history has a lot of unintended consequences, but as the East rises you will see the carnage
Largely from UN reports. But here is a good article from Time Magazine.

There are many many available.

How Somalia's Fishermen Became Pirates - TIME
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Old 04-07-2016, 18:42   #111
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Re: New Ocean Warrior is a Beauty

Yes I saw that, Time in 1975 they predicted the coming Ice Age.
The UN article was about not enough government to keep people in check
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Old 04-07-2016, 19:30   #112
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Re: New Ocean Warrior is a Beauty

Hi, guys,

For what it's worth, in RC's post #73, he used the term "quack" twice to refer to the US Court of Appeals. That was the first time he made the allegation. This forum has a number of American readers, who may not think that an accurate description of the court process.

Relative to his post #96, AFAIK, his comment for suggesting the whaling problem is only since the 20th century is correct, but it is only one of a few examples I gave of the general behavior of choosing one's own immediate benefit over the greater good of all of us--the tragedy of the commons. I agree that krill fishing is legal, but even so, it is an example, also, of a short-sighted policy which could lead to the extinction of ocean life.

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Old 04-07-2016, 19:44   #113
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Re: New Ocean Warrior is a Beauty

In that Wellwise article they said krill was the most plentiful biomass In the ocean.
As for saving the whale, John D Rockerfuller is to blame for developing that evil oil.
If 70,000 whales die naturally every year I don't consider them endangered. Some species of whales may be. I would accept the opinion of Sea World, but this is an emotional issue.
In the colonies we consider some of those judge quacks also.
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Old 04-07-2016, 19:58   #114
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Re: New Ocean Warrior is a Beauty

If we hadn't discovered plentiful 'rock oil' there would not be a single whale or furry creature left on the planet by now.

I could never understand the Greenpeace thing... 'save the whale/dont burn rock oil'... a bit of a contradiction don't you think?

I would query the veracity of the 70,000 whales dying naturally ( yesterday you said it was down to starvation, injury and disease) each year stuff.

Audibon ? Wasn't he the bloke who used to shoot endangered species of bird, pin em to a board, and then paint them?
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Old 04-07-2016, 20:07   #115
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Re: New Ocean Warrior is a Beauty

I don't know, in the past I have heard 68 k. That's why in included the web site.
If so, that's a lot of meals
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Old 04-07-2016, 23:38   #116
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Re: New Ocean Warrior is a Beauty

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Strict regulation... ie you won't be seeing that in the fish and chip shops ever again..

Bit like crayfish... when I was a pup we would have a ginormous cray most weekends in the summer ( ex Flinders, Mornington Peninsula )...
Now $100 a kilo....
$132kg at Christmas time it was
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Old 04-07-2016, 23:54   #117
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Re: New Ocean Warrior is a Beauty

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Hi, guys,

For what it's worth, in RC's post #73, he used the term "quack" twice to refer to the US Court of Appeals. That was the first time he made the allegation. This forum has a number of American readers, who may not think that an accurate description of the court process.

Relative to his post #96, AFAIK, his comment for suggesting the whaling problem is only since the 20th century is correct, but it is only one of a few examples I gave of the general behavior of choosing one's own immediate benefit over the greater good of all of us--the tragedy of the commons. I agree that krill fishing is legal, but even so, it is an example, also, of a short-sighted policy which could lead to the extinction of ocean life.

A.

To Ann, and any other American's I offended by calling your courts process 'in this matter' a 'quack', I appologise for any offence given. I simply lack the confidence you have in that court decision. Unlike the British Courts and thus Australian courts system, judicial decision's are strictly based on the interpretation of the Law, without extrapolation. Whereas, I'm conscious that when a Supreme court seat is needing to be filled in the US the Government in office, more specifically the president's nomination is, of course around political idealologies is put first and forward. Though, to be fair there is, or was when I did Law a fair bit of dispute around Australia's appointment of so called independent judges as well.

Anyway, to Ann and any other's offended by my insult to your judicial system, I appologise.
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Old 05-07-2016, 08:31   #118
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Re: New Ocean Warrior is a Beauty

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Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
Hi, guys,

For what it's worth, in RC's post #73, he used the term "quack" twice to refer to the US Court of Appeals. That was the first time he made the allegation. This forum has a number of American readers, who may not think that an accurate description of the court process.

Relative to his post #96, AFAIK, his comment for suggesting the whaling problem is only since the 20th century is correct, but it is only one of a few examples I gave of the general behavior of choosing one's own immediate benefit over the greater good of all of us--the tragedy of the commons. I agree that krill fishing is legal, but even so, it is an example, also, of a short-sighted policy which could lead to the extinction of ocean life.

A.
Absolutely agree on all counts!

RC seems to gloss over all of the terrorist activities of SS, like blowing up ships with limpet mines, ramming fishing vessels, etc. Here's a list:

Quote:
1979: A Sea Shepherd vessel rams the whaling vessel “Sierra”, causing considerable damage.
“Sierra” survives attack.
1980: The IWC at its meeting in Brighton, United Kingdom, assigns high-level protection to two
Canadian Government delegates after Watson threatened to kill them for voting against a
moratorium on sperm whales. Delegates given Royal Canadian Mounted Police protection until
their return home to Canada.
1980: The “Sierra” is sunk in Lisbon harbour. Sea Shepherd claims responsibility. Investigation
shows limpet mines used to blow up the vessel.
1981: Sea Shepherd claims responsibility for the sinking of the two whaling vessels, Ibsa I and
Ibsa II, in the Spanish harbour of Viga.
1983: Paul Watson and “Sea Shepherd” vessel engineer Paul Pezwick, tried and convicted in a
Quebec, Canada, court for “interfering in the annual seal hunt in the Gulf of St. Lawrence”. Trial
followed arrest in March 1983 when “Sea Shepherd” vessel boarded by Canadian police. “Sea
Shepherd” fortified including electric barbed wire around the deck’s edges. Seventeen crew
arrested. Watson and three others flee across ice to Cape Breton, Nova Scotia, but caught and
arrested. Watson charged additionally with piloting a ship in a dangerous manner, intimidation of
the sealers and being unlawfully within a half mile of the seal hunt – a violation of the Seal
Protection Regulations. Watson sentenced to 15 months imprisonment.
1983: In retaliation for Watson’s arrest by Canadian police, animal rights extremists slash car
tires and spray paint slogans on walls of buildings in the inner city of Quebec. “Fisheries Murder
Seals” and “Set Paul Watson Free” slogans spray painted on the Department of Fisheries and
Oceans offices in Keele Street. Animal Liberation Front delivers letter to the Quebec Star
newspaper admitting causing several thousand dollars worth of damage to the Department’s
Keele Street offices.
1986: Sea Shepherd attempts to stop Faroe Islands pilot whale harvest. Using rifles, Sea
Shepherd activists shoot at Faroe Islands police in an attempt to sink their rubber dinghies. The
vessel “Sea Shepherd” was ordered to leave Faroese territorial waters. The police report of 7
October 1986 states: “One of the rubber dinghies was attacked directly by a “Speed Line” line
rifle. The attack … endangered the lives of the police crewmembers ... and signal flares
containing phosphorous was thrown at the police. At a later stage the Sea Shepherd used “toads”
(rotating iron spikes, pointed and sharp at both ends) against the rubber dinghies … petrol was
poured over the side of the ship and signal flares were thrown from the “Sea Shepherd” in an
attempt to set the petrol on fire.”
1986: Sea Shepherd claims responsibility for the sinking of two whaling vessels in Reykjavik,
Iceland, and for malicious damage to a whaling station. (This act of violence was carried out after
Iceland stopped whaling in line with the IWC moratorium on commercial whaling.) Attack
carried out by Sea Shepherd members Rodney A. Coronado and David Howitt. (Coronado linked
to Animal Liberation Front and arrested eight years later by United States FBI for his part in an
ALF attack on Michigan State University research laboratory. Charges included use of an
explosive device, theft and arson.)
1988: Paul Watson returns in Iceland demanding to be held responsible for the sinking of the
whaling vessels in Reykjavik in 1986. (He is arrested and held for questioning and told he could
face several years’ imprisonment. In a press release, the Icelandic Ministry of Justice stated: “At
questioning, Paul Watson has admitted that he has given some remarks that connect him with the
sabotage, but in spite of this he now claims that he neither took part in the planning nor the
execution of the sabotage.”) There was no evidence incriminating Watson. He was ordered to
leave the country and declared persona non grata in Iceland.
1991: A US crew member on a Mexican fishing vessel, reports that Sea Shepherd, some of whose
crew were armed with rifles, rammed his vessel causing considerable damage.
1991: Scott Trimmingham, president of Sea Shepherd quits in protest. “We had rules about not
hurting anyone, about not using weapons. I left because those rules and that philosophy seems to
be changing.” Outside magazine (Sept. 1991). Paul Watson admits there are arms on board “Sea
Shepherd”. “We confront dangerous people. As the captain, it is my responsibility to protect the
lives of my crew ... Therefore, I have prepared myself for the possibility of defending my crew in
a situation that could go never occur, but if it does I will use firearms to first intimidate and then
to defend,” Watson tells the Los Angeles Free Weekly (April 24, 1992).
1992: Sea Shepherd makes unsuccessful attempts at ramming three Costa Rican fishing vessels.
In a written complaint to the local authorities the fishermen report that the Sea Shepherd crew
shot at them with bullets containing a red substance, hitting two of them and causing them great
pain.
1992: Sea Shepherd makes unsuccessful attempt at scuttling the whaling and fishing vessel
“Nybræna” at her moorings in the Lofoten Islands, northern Norway. Attack committed by Paul
Watson, girlfriend Lisa DiStefano and one other Sea Shepherd member. Watson later states: “The
scuttling of the Nybræna was not a terrorist or criminal act. We were responsible for removing an
instrument of death and destruction without causing death or injury.” Charges laid against
Watson, who fails to turn up in court. Watson convicted in absentia and sentenced to 120 days in
prison.
1992: Sea Shepherd vessel “Whales Forever” collides with Norwegian Coast Guard vessel
“Andenes” on July 4. Charges against Paul Watson include negligent navigation, refusal to leave
Norwegian waters on orders of the Coast Guard and transmitting false distress signals. (Tape
supplied)
1993: Paul Watson orders the crew on board the Sea Shepherd vessel “Edward Abbey” (formerly
US Navy) to open cannon fire at a Japanese fishing vessel. Sea Shepherd crew do not carry out
the order, but instead fire a shot across the bow of the Japanese vessel. The Japanese vessel does
not stop. (Recorded by Yorkshire Television Documentary “Defenders of the Wild – Ocean
Rider”.)
1993: Paul Watson claims in an open letter to the people of Norway that Sea Shepherd has sunk
eight ships and rammed and damaged a further six vessels. In the same letter, he states: “The Sea
Shepherd Conservation Society is a law abiding organization. We rigidly adhere to and respect
the laws of nature or lex natura. We hold the position that the laws of ecology take precedence
over the laws designed by nation states to protect corporate interests … the smell of guilt is
already a stench in the nostrils of God.”
1993: Federal Grand Jury in Michigan State hands down five-count indictment against Coronado
for illegal use of explosives, extortion, threats to interfere with interstate commerce and interstate
transportation, to commit arson, theft and destruction of government property and for receiving
stolen property. Indictments stem from February 1992 fire-bombing of Michigan State University
in East Lancing. Coronado involved in sinking two whaling vessels in Iceland in 1986.
1994: Sea Shepherd claims responsibility for the unsuccessful attempt at scuttling the combined
minke whaling and fishing vessel “Senet” at her moorings in Gressvik. The vessel was salvaged,
but the water had caused considerable damage. Paul Watson tells Norwegian newspaper
Dagbladet on January 26 that former US navy “Seal” commandos took part in attack on the Senet.
“Certainly these men are trained to kill, but they are also well disciplined and respect my orders,”
he told the newspaper.
1994: Sea Shepherd loses observer status at the International Whaling Commission. IWC
Secretary, Ray Gambell, declares that the IWC and all its member states ardently condemn Sea
Shepherd’s acts of terrorism.
1994: US National Fisheries Institute asks for investigation into Sea Shepherd. “The recent
alleged actions against Norwegian fishing vessels constitute a clear case of piracy,” it says in a
letter to former US IWC Commissioner James Baker. “Acts of violence against fishermen of any
nation cannot be tolerated. Their safety and livelihood could be threatened unless US officials
vigorously condemn violence on the high seas.”

1997: Paul Watson arrested at Schiphol Airport in Amsterdam, Netherlands, for the 1992
attempted scuttling of the Norwegian combined whaling and fishing vessel “Nybræna”. Arrested
by Dutch police after Interpol issues warrant. Serves 80 days in prison in the Netherlands, the
equivalent of the necessary two-thirds of the 120-day prison sentence handed down by Norway.
2000: Watson campaigns against the Makah people of Northwest United States. He uses
intimidation to prevent the Makah from carrying out their IWC approved catch of the gray whale.
2002: Watson tells Animal Rights 2002 Conference in Washington DC that if a person dies from
one of his actions, he would consider it “collateral damage”. He believes it is not possible to
“commit violence against non-sentient objects. Property damage is not violence.”

Meanwhile, not a single Japanese whaler has been arrested or charged with any crime, which any nation is welcome to do if they feel a crime has been committed.


Now if SS vessels want to track and radio in the positions of poaching vessels without endangering anyone's lives, I'm all for that. As RC posted, they have been instrumental in getting local authorities to arrest poachers when they pull into port. All of these poachers have to pull in somewhere to offload their catch, if authorities are tipped off that the fish in that vessel were poached, that's an immense help for nations that lack the resources to track these poachers in international waters.

Observe and report is fine, it's legal. Bombing, ramming and shooting at fishermen is not legal, it's terrorist activity. Nobody in their right mind should ever condone it, regardless of the motivation.
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Old 05-07-2016, 08:45   #119
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Re: New Ocean Warrior is a Beauty

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To Ann, and any other American's I offended by calling your courts process 'in this matter' a 'quack', I appologise for any offence given. I simply lack the confidence you have in that court decision. Unlike the British Courts and thus Australian courts system, judicial decision's are strictly based on the interpretation of the Law, without extrapolation. Whereas, I'm conscious that when a Supreme court seat is needing to be filled in the US the Government in office, more specifically the president's nomination is, of course around political idealologies is put first and forward. Though, to be fair there is, or was when I did Law a fair bit of dispute around Australia's appointment of so called independent judges as well.

Anyway, to Ann and any other's offended by my insult to your judicial system, I appologise.


To think that anyone, including a judge, is completely unbiased and without any political ideologies or affiliations is extremely naive, at best.

Any thinking person has political opinions whether they voice them or not; we're just a lot more open about ours. We've accepted that everyone has a political affiliation and appoint judges to the highest court in the land based on that, with 9 seats so there is never a tie vote unless one of them abstains.

What irritates me is that if the laws were well written and written clearly as to their intent, there wouldn't be nearly as much need to constantly interpret the law.
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Old 05-07-2016, 10:14   #120
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Re: New Ocean Warrior is a Beauty

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To think that anyone, including a judge, is completely unbiased and without any political ideologies or affiliations is extremely naive, at best.

Any thinking person has political opinions whether they voice them or not; we're just a lot more open about ours. We've accepted that everyone has a political affiliation and appoint judges to the highest court in the land based on that, with 9 seats so there is never a tie vote unless one of them abstains.

What irritates me is that if the laws were well written and written clearly as to their intent, there wouldn't be nearly as much need to constantly interpret the law.
The problem you have when political ideologies are required to become a judge is that some aspirants will adopt that which will get them elected, much as some politicians will. Too often a such a person cannot free themselves from those ideologies to render common sense decisions.
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