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Old 23-05-2013, 11:39   #46
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Re: Best Overall Anchor for 50' powerboats

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Originally Posted by motion30 View Post
what makes you guys think the roll bar.and impedance for the anchor to be buried deep . on more than one time I've had my suppreme burried where you could only see the chain protruding from the sand
No doubt if the anchor is in sand posing little resistance, a roll bar anchor can bury itself completely. The point is that if you have a round bar in a plane perpendicular to the sea bed it will produce resistance to burying. That isn't likely to happen in our NW combination of shells, mud and rocks. The roll bar will also produce some resistance to dragging I suppose, and that no doubt is a benefit, if small. But clearly, an anchor without that perpendicular surface will bury itself better than one that has that resistance point.

The question is whether the deeply buried anchor provides more resistance to dragging than an anchor not as deeply buried. Seems to me the answer is clear just given the compaction increase as you go deeper in the seabed.
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Old 23-05-2013, 12:06   #47
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Re: Best Overall Anchor for 50' powerboats

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
A thick ballasted toe also does not facilitate burying, nor does a light tip weight. The roll bar facilitates a high tip weight with a fine chisel tip toe.
I certainly agree. The Spade, Ultra, Excel and Delta all have a pretty fine tip on them - more of a point than a chisel I suppose, so perhaps that is why the first three bury themselves nicely.

I guess I'm still not sure how a roll bar facilitates high tip weight since it places weight about as far from the tip as you can get. I thought the purpose was so the anchor would roll over and start digging in, but perhaps I'm mistaken. I believe that Craig Smith wrote the Wikipedia entry on anchors and had this to say about the roll bar and tip weight:

The Rocna has been made since 2004. Like the Bügel', it has a sharp toe and roll-bar for weed and grass. It sets quickly [3], and has a large fluke area. Its roll-bar is similar to the Bügel's, and ensures the correct setting angle with low weight on the tip.[4]
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Old 23-05-2013, 12:34   #48
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Re: Best Overall Anchor for 50' powerboats

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Tip weight. The spade has a lead weighted tip while the Boss has an unweight tip. Our own little testing suggested (I am intentionally using a 'softer' word than proved) that tip weight and tip sharpness were more important than tip 'thickness'.

I will freely acknowledge I have never used a Boss. There might well be something I am overlooking. I respect Manson and am sure the Boss is a quite capable anchor and for the OP it was specifically designed as a 'power boat' anchor.

My concern with the spade has always been the need to melt the lead out (and then back in) if you want to get it regalvanized. Despite the (extremely painful) cost, I personally would lean either toward SS or an ultra if going down this route for that reason.

I think either would do the job, while still leaning slightly toward the spade.
I have the boss and have not used a rocna or roll bar anchor. I will say that I actually got the boss because it would not be able to "hold mud" here in the bay. I think the angle of attack is more important than tip weight. Regarding the boss being specifically for power boats, the marketing has in fact changed since the anchors inception. originally, their ad made no mention of being marketed for power boats, that came much later. Manson (at one time, I have not checked in a while) stated on the site that the boss had higher holding power than the supreme (supreme is like rocna). That being said, I did not want to roll bar for 2 reasons. 1. Holding mud. 2. if there is a same weight anchor that has higher holding power, get that (the boss).
imo the roll bar gives resistance against deeper digging. Without the roll bar, the boss self rights itself just like the spade. for the weight, has more fluke area that translates to more surface area to grab whatever the bottom is.

I think any new gen anchor would be the best at the end of the day.
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Old 23-05-2013, 12:34   #49
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Re: Best Overall Anchor for 50' powerboats

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Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
I certainly agree. The Spade, Ultra, Excel and Delta all have a pretty fine tip on them - more of a point than a chisel I suppose, so perhaps that is why the first three bury themselves nicely.

The ballast that is necessary in the tip of the non roll bar anchors like the Spade, Ultra, Excel and delta make the tip considerably thicker than the roll bar anchors such as the MS and Rocna.

This does not make them a bad anchor. Its is just part of the compromise.

MS and Rocna need no blast in the tip which means the tip can be made with a considerably finer profile.
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Old 23-05-2013, 12:45   #50
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Re: Best Overall Anchor for 50' powerboats

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Originally Posted by boatsail View Post
I have the boss and have not used a rocna or roll bar anchor. I will say that I actually got the boss because it would not be able to "hold mud" here in the bay. I think the angle of attack is more important than tip weight. Regarding the boss being specifically for power boats, the marketing has in fact changed since the anchors inception. originally, their ad made no mention of being marketed for power boats, that came much later. Manson (at one time, I have not checked in a while) stated on the site that the boss had higher holding power than the supreme (supreme is like rocna). That being said, I did not want to roll bar for 2 reasons. 1. Holding mud. 2. if there is a same weight anchor that has higher holding power, get that (the boss).
imo the roll bar gives resistance against deeper digging. Without the roll bar, the boss self rights itself just like the spade. for the weight, has more fluke area that translates to more surface area to grab whatever the bottom is.

I think any new gen anchor would be the best at the end of the day.
The Boss is an interesting case in point, since it lacks the roll bar and looks like it has the same tip as the Supreme, yet is claimed to have higher holding area. Kind of calls into question the need for a roll bar at all, doesn't it? I've always suspected that the reason Rocna has a roll bar is because when Smith copied the Buegel, it had a roll bar, and Manson followed suit. Maybe it serves some other function than that stated by Rocna - to ensure the unweighted tip is in position to start digging - but apparently that purpose isn't needed by the Boss.

I presume you find your Boss digs in ok?
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Old 23-05-2013, 12:50   #51
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Re: Best Overall Anchor for 50' powerboats

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
The ballast that is necessary in the tip of the non roll bar anchors like the Spade, Ultra, Excel and delta make the tip considerably thicker than the roll bar anchors such as the MS and Rocna.

This does not make them a bad anchor. Its is just part of the compromise.

MS and Rocna need no blast in the tip which means the tip can be considerably finer.
Like Estarzinger, I suspect that tip weight is more critical than the fineness of the tip when it comes to digging. This is probably because of the angle of attack of the tip as it digs in. If that angle is anything less than slicing straight in parallel to the seabed, and it always is, then the actual profile of the metal making contact with the seabed is the same with the Rocna, Manson, Excel or Spade because the ballast section is essentially in the 'shadow' of the tilted tip.
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Old 23-05-2013, 12:57   #52
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Re: Best Overall Anchor for 50' powerboats

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Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
The Boss is an interesting case in point, since it lacks the roll bar and looks like it has the same tip as the Supreme, yet is claimed to have higher holding area. Kind of calls into question the need for a roll bar at all, doesn't it? I've always suspected that the reason Rocna has a roll bar is because when Smith copied the Buegel, it had a roll bar, and Manson followed suit. Maybe it serves some other function than that stated by Rocna - to ensure the unweighted tip is in position to start digging - but apparently that purpose isn't needed by the Boss.

I presume you find your Boss digs in ok?
Digs in just fine. I cannot do a comparrison as I do not have an anchor with a rollbar, but I could probably guess that 2 identical anchors with the same pull on them, one with roll bar and 1 without would show that the one with the roll bar would not go as deep due to the friction/resistance of the bar holding the anchor back. All things being equal of course.

Why do we design cars the way we design them? New is scary and most people don't want to do something out of the norm. The roll bar was acceptable and people knew that it would make your anchor "correct" regarding position. Taht being said, take a roll bar off and people might "think" the anchor wont self right as good as a roll bar anchor. Perception is often reality and often marketing takes a precidence over fact. Anchor testing.....every one I see gets critiqued just like the Robert Redford climbing the mast thread;-) regarding testing and anchors, nobody believes what the manufacturer shows if their anchor is better than the others because its a bias opinion. Would manson ever show that rocna is better even if they knew it? nope. It's about crying wolf, but opposite. Even if you have the best anchor and can prove it, nobody would believe you and your competitors would only work to discredit you

Change is bad. If I told you there is a car better designed to give 90% less wind resistance than any car ever made, would you pay to design it and market it to the public as a car in a price that needs to be sold to the masses to make your profits? no, it is to risky. You could make it and make it very high priced because you won't sell as many and try and sell the value. I'm rambling here, but the point is that people don't like change...ok, one more.

I sell houses for a living. Shingles are the most common thing used on a roof. WTH. There are better things that would last a lifetime that we could put on a roof. Plastics for example. Less individual places for leaks, longer lasting, Probably cheaper and easier to install, but it would look wierd to the masses because the neighbors have shingles and shingles are acceptable. WE put shingles on houses because it is what is expected, not because it is the best. Prefablicated (read manufactured housing). Building a 2k sq ft house can easily be done in controlled conditions and built in jigs and heated/cooled controlled environment. Stick built is still the way to go because people have a bad feeling about a "cheap" fabricated "trailer", when in reality, a prefab house in 2013 the right ones that is, you cant tell its prefab, nobody would know, but if they did, what would they think? Stigma and perception is reality when it comes to manufacturing.
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Old 23-05-2013, 14:12   #53
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Re: Best Overall Anchor for 50' powerboats

For a lot of boats unfortunatly roll bar anchors will not fit. Anchor manufactures are struggling to develop non roll bar anchors that work well.

The Spade is a excellent non roll bar anchor, but has been heavily protected with patients (which are about to expire) and is an expensive anchor to manufacture.

Attempts to produce an effective simpler design (therefore reasonably priced) non roll bar anchors is the holly grail of anchor design. Manufacturers have focused on modifying the Delta anchor (Kobra and Excel) and some radical anchors such as the Oceane. The latter have been generally unsuccessful despite an inital fanfare and wave of favourable publicity.

The Manson Boss is from a well established anchor manufacturer, but is the design aimed to fill the gap for a non roll bar anchor with reasonable performance, or do Manson feel it is a genuine step forward from the MS?
Their arch rival Rocna has no similar anchor.

We need a combination of CF members reports and anchor tests to establish the truth.

It is an exciting time for anchors I think with the expiry of the Spade's patients, the influx of new players we are in for a period of rapid development. We need to be skeptical of manufacturers claims, but be aware that if the last few years have been any indication, we will see much better models in the near future.

The cheap cost of the materials and fabrication, hopefully means, we can see some price reduction of good anchors as the development costs become amortized over more units and competition takes effect.
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Old 31-05-2013, 17:54   #54
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Re: Best Overall Anchor for 50' powerboats

Practical Sailor Mag. did a 180 degree flip test on anchors and surprise the roll bar units would not reset. Mud on bar kept anchor from assuming proper position.
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Old 31-05-2013, 18:44   #55
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Re: Best Overall Anchor for 50' powerboats

I just received my Boss 45lb today. It's beyond huge. In fact, ridiculous!
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Old 31-05-2013, 21:40   #56
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Re: Best Overall Anchor for 50' powerboats

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I just received my Boss 45lb today. It's beyond huge. In fact, ridiculous!
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The sheer size was a deterrent for me. I thought if I had a 200 # Boss Delfin would look like a Probiscus Monkey.
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Old 31-05-2013, 21:58   #57
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Re: Best Overall Anchor for 50' powerboats

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Originally Posted by eyschulman View Post
Practical Sailor Mag. did a 180 degree flip test on anchors and surprise the roll bar units would not reset. Mud on bar kept anchor from assuming proper position.
Seems to be the situation with roll bars in mud.

Did they include the Mantus in that test ??
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Old 31-05-2013, 23:27   #58
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Re: Best Overall Anchor for 50' powerboats

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Like Estarzinger, I suspect that tip weight is more critical than the fineness of the tip when it comes to digging. This is probably because of the angle of attack of the tip as it digs in. If that angle is anything less than slicing straight in parallel to the seabed, and it always is, then the actual profile of the metal making contact with the seabed is the same with the Rocna, Manson, Excel or Spade because the ballast section is essentially in the 'shadow' of the tilted tip.
I write with experience that the profile is very significant when the bottom is hard-pack sand. If the density of the bottom increases with depth of penetration, then tip profile is important in an even wider range of situations. Noelex 77 wrote in post 49 above: "The ballast that is necessary in the tip of the non roll bar anchors like the Spade, Ultra, Excel and delta make the tip considerably thicker than the roll bar anchors such as the MS and Rocna."

I have owned a Delta, Spade, Manson Supreme and Rocna -- and used them in the same nearby anchorage (for many years) that is a good test for this: Salt Pond in Block Island (south of "Sandy Point").

It being a very popular spot, many of you know that it is about 2-4" of loose silt on top of dense hard-packed sand (with occasional weed/grass patches). Many people drag here because it is difficult to get a good set. Diving on my anchor showed me the Delta or Spade will not penetrate past the silt into the hard-pack. In other words, they did not get a good set. The Manson and Rocna penetrate deeply and the majority of the hoop is buried. This being sand (not mud) they are capable of resetting reliably when the direction of pull is changed. They are also more capable of penetrating the local varieties of weed because of better tip sharpness (especially the Supreme).

That being true, I recognize the hoop can be a liability and can add resistance after the anchor has set so that it does not penetrate more deeply. In other locations it can also trap thick mud or weed preventing a reset. I don't find them to be great mud anchors. The Fortress is my best mud anchor, but I don't trust it to reset if the wind dies then comes up in another direction.

In the search for the holy grail of anchors, the Boss is looking very attractive to me right now and it might be in my future. It's larger fluke size and horned appearance on the bow roller are negatives, but perhaps worth it if it has the setting and holding performance of the Supreme and Rocna but even deeper penetration and resetting ability. The key word is "IF". The jury is still out.
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Old 01-06-2013, 09:34   #59
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Re: Best Overall Anchor for 50' powerboats

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I write with experience that the profile is very significant when the bottom is hard-pack sand. If the density of the bottom increases with depth of penetration, then tip profile is important in an even wider range of situations. Noelex 77 wrote in post 49 above: "The ballast that is necessary in the tip of the non roll bar anchors like the Spade, Ultra, Excel and delta make the tip considerably thicker than the roll bar anchors such as the MS and Rocna."

I have owned a Delta, Spade, Manson Supreme and Rocna -- and used them in the same nearby anchorage (for many years) that is a good test for this: Salt Pond in Block Island (south of "Sandy Point").

It being a very popular spot, many of you know that it is about 2-4" of loose silt on top of dense hard-packed sand (with occasional weed/grass patches). Many people drag here because it is difficult to get a good set. Diving on my anchor showed me the Delta or Spade will not penetrate past the silt into the hard-pack. In other words, they did not get a good set. The Manson and Rocna penetrate deeply and the majority of the hoop is buried. This being sand (not mud) they are capable of resetting reliably when the direction of pull is changed. They are also more capable of penetrating the local varieties of weed because of better tip sharpness (especially the Supreme).

That being true, I recognize the hoop can be a liability and can add resistance after the anchor has set so that it does not penetrate more deeply. In other locations it can also trap thick mud or weed preventing a reset. I don't find them to be great mud anchors. The Fortress is my best mud anchor, but I don't trust it to reset if the wind dies then comes up in another direction.

In the search for the holy grail of anchors, the Boss is looking very attractive to me right now and it might be in my future. It's larger fluke size and horned appearance on the bow roller are negatives, but perhaps worth it if it has the setting and holding performance of the Supreme and Rocna but even deeper penetration and resetting ability. The key word is "IF". The jury is still out.
That is great practical experience to share, thank you. My only comments would be that I am not surprised about the Delta. Though it has a quite a sharp point for whatever reason it doesn't seem to be the best burying anchor. I also think that total anchor weight changes performance significantly. My 44# Bruce on 12 tons was an indifferent performer, but the 176# on 65 tons was great. Might gravity have something to do with digging performance?
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Old 01-06-2013, 10:55   #60
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Just a follow-up on my purchase of the 44# Spade… I absolutely love this anchor! After getting back from Bimini, we went to Elliot Key for final testing. Grass, silt, sand. My nemesis with that !@#% Bruce! Windlass down and "stuck" the landing for a 10! Three times. The tough part twice was getting it back up. Almost knocked my wife off the now one time (dang it!). Wind was really blowing. This baby would not let go AT ALL. Thanks for the suggestions on this anchor. Also, think the Boss would do well, too. But right now, I can sleep better while on hook.
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