Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 12-08-2006, 03:53   #16
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Galveston
Boat: C&C 27
Posts: 724
I guess I don't understand why they didn't see this situation arising farther off and avoid making what apprears to be a dangerious last minute decision.
__________________

__________________
Pura Vida is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2006, 07:54   #17
learningcurve
Guest

Posts: n/a
Not sure if this incident is the same case, but this reminds me about how I ALWAYS see boaters who seem to think their boat handles like a car.

That it turns on a dime, stops short, and reverses instantly.

Moreover, they dont seem to realize that LARGE heavily laden commercial vessles cannot change course quickly to avoid collision even though they may seem a distance away.

We had a neighbor at the marina for a while that had a Catalina 320 that he liked to back in to the slip. He would gun the engine in reverse until the stern was a foot from the dock. Then he would put it in neutral. Sometimes he would put in in forward. We always knew when he came back because we would hear the CRASH when the boat hit the dock.

The thing is, he DID THIS EVERY TIME!!! And each time he hit the dock he didnt look a bit concerned.

He did generate a lot of business for gelcoat repair though.
__________________

__________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2006, 08:05   #18
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: VANCOUVER,, CANADA
Posts: 8
I'VE BEEN ATTACKED BY A B.C. FERRY AND IT'S NO FUN. NOT ALL NEAR COLLISIONS WITH LARGER SHIPS IS THE FAULT OF THE SMALL BOAT. WANT TO HEAR THE STORY?
__________________
JIMBO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2006, 13:12   #19
Senior Cruiser
 
Alan Wheeler's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Marlborough Sounds. New Zealand
Boat: Hartley Tahitian 45ft. Leisure Lady
Posts: 8,038
Images: 102
Of course, the incedent may have made him Deaf Rick :-)
Go ahead Jimbo, would love to hear the story.
__________________
Wheels

For God so loved the world..........He didn't send a committee.
Alan Wheeler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2006, 18:56   #20
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: VANCOUVER,, CANADA
Posts: 8
Sorry for shouting. When a 100 ton Public Ferry comes through a 1/4 mile pass, all heck breaks loose. I was on my little 27' Bayliner Buccaneer Center Cockpit sloop, hugging the port shore when this behemouth turns the corner. The pass is called Active Pass. It is s shaped and has blind spots. Well this ferry was steaming at about 15 knots around this bend and i saw him coming. He then violently veered to his starboard. His port side lurched up at least 4" as he swung into my path. He had 3/4 of the Pass to pass me on but he came right at me. He sounded 3 alarm horns. I waited to see if he would correct his course. He did not so i scooted out of his path with barely enough time to turn into his wash. He scared the daylights out of me. I have been sailing 3 years and have never had this happen in the Pass. I reported his actions to the Ferrry Corp. and they are investigating. Been 2 weeks and no reply as yet. Now what is required?

















'
__________________
JIMBO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2006, 19:19   #21
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: VANCOUVER,, CANADA
Posts: 8
I understand your reply. I do not wish to make a Federal case out of this, i just would like to hear their version of my story. How long will this take? Any ideas?
__________________
JIMBO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2006, 11:42   #22
Registered User
 
rsn48's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Deep Cove - North Vancouver, BC
Boat: Catalina 27 - Leaky Cauldron
Posts: 350
I've been through this pass a hundred times or more, some of them on the bridge of the ferry (buddy who is an officer for BC Ferries). My observations are thus:

1. Many power and sail boaters shouldn't be using the pass. As we all know here, there are plenty of bone headed sailors and power boaters out there. These same "challenged" boaters use active pass and do some incredibly dumb things. Why more haven't been killed is actually a testimonial to the officers and men of BC Ferries manning the wheel's skill.

2. Most boaters don't understand the issues of commercial traffic through the pass. For example, the Ferry you are talking about could easily have been to one side as the officer of the watch knew that the other ferry traveling in the opposite direction was due to come through, even though you may have not seen it. With commercial traffic, passing areas are set up well in advance of the actual fact. If you get two of the Spirit ships (BC Ferries) meeting in the pass, there's not a heck a lot of room for other smaller vessels, especially ones who are new to boating or fools.

3. In my opinion, the pass should be shut down to private traffic and only commercial traffic allowed to use it. Porlier Pass would have to be used as an alternative or an end run to avoid Active Pass.

I have been looking at Chapman's and the requirements in a Narrow Channel is that the "vessel must keep to the right." "This places a burden on a vessel on the left side to (1) be there only if it must, and (2) establish agreement for a starboard to starboard passage."

I doubt the BC Ferry sounded three blasts as this indicates a vessel going astern. He either gave a one or two short blasts to indicate how he was passing you - or - he was giving you 5 blasts to indicate danger. I hear 5 blasts all the time near and around Horseshoe Bay. Sewell's marina rents out boats to any fool with a credit card and some of these fools have done incredibly stupid things, like halting in the Ferry's birth as the ferry is coming in - then you hear 5 blasts for sure... lol. Or some fool will take his rented boat across the path of the ferry just as the ferry is leaving - even though the ferry did sound its horn to indicate it is leaving.

It seems to me there is a difference between three blasts (going astern) on the Great Lakes and our surrounding oceans ( I also have an older version of Chapman's I just checked) and apparently on the Great Lakes three short mean something else unless it has been changed.

By the way, if a vessel does give you one or two short blasts, you are obligated to reply.

In the pass you can notify the Spirits of your location realizing these guys are basically "power boaters" so don't go over board identifying your boat, I would even leave out the word sloop as how many power boaters know what a sloop is. Channel 12 is Vancouver harbour and Vancouver working channel and Channel 11 is Victoria equivelant. If I was transfersing active pass in one of the blind spots, I'd get on channel 11 and say something like this: "Spirits of British Columbia and Spirit of Vancouver, this is Leaky Cauldron a 27 foot sailing vessel presently at such and such a location, advising you of my situation as I enter the blind spot such and such, over"

Probably they will reply. My advise - stay out of Active Pass in the summer.

Here is a link to one of the two Spirits stastics:

http://www.geocities.com/ferries_bc/.../bcf_sobc.html

Some pictures to give you an idea of how tight a pass it really is:

This pic is of the pass at its widest point, you can see it narrowing to the right in the pic:

http://www2.hellobc.com/travelmedia/image.aspx?id=47

Although this is a print, it gives you an idea of how restricted Active Pass can be:
http://www.henschelfinearts.com/queenvict.html

http://www.henschelfinearts.com/thespirit.html

This photo gives you an idea of how close the ferries are to the shore:
http://www.birdinfo.com/BirdFinding/bf023_TsawwassentoSwartzBay.html
__________________
rsn48 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2006, 16:38   #23
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Out there doin' it
Boat: 47' Olympic Adventure
Posts: 2,634
I have to agree with rsn48 that there are too many boneheads out there, but I don't think public waterways should be restricted to commercial traffic only. Also you don't need to respond to one or two short blasts, except in Great Lakes and US Inland waters.

Jimbo, perhaps you could be a little more specific. Why were you to port in a narrow channel? What was the name of the ferry? Or what was the class - AFAIK BC Ferries doesn't have any vessels of 100 tons. The ferry that goes into Sturdies Bay is about 1500 tons and the Spirit boats are about 19,000 tons. Did you hear one prolonged whistle (nearing a blind corner) - did you make one yourself? Which direction were you travelling and which direction was the ferry heading? What corner was it? There are numerous eddies at both ends of Active Pass as well as in Miner's Bay, so it is possible the ferry oversteered the turn. Three short blasts does not mean "I am going astern"; it means "I am operating astern propulsion". There is a distinction, as he may have been using a shot of astern to slow himself or just on one side to increase or reduce the yaw - the warning implies that steerageway may be affected when running the props in reverse. You also mentioned that the ferry's port side "lurched up" by 4 inches while he was swinging to starboard - that doesn't make sense, as ships heel to port when turning to stbd. There may have been a perceived "lurch" when the ferry reversed the rudder to stop the turn. Anyway Active Pass is challenging, but certainly is roomy enough for both you and the ferry. Bigger vessels do need more room (and time) to manoeuvre - as a sailing vessel (and a small one at that) you are required to not impede a large vessel in a narrow channel. I doubt this incident whould have even been noted by the bridge crew of the ferry, as I also think they probably have several such interactions with small recreational vessels on every passage.

Kevin
__________________
Lodesman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2006, 17:28   #24
Registered User
 
rsn48's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Deep Cove - North Vancouver, BC
Boat: Catalina 27 - Leaky Cauldron
Posts: 350
I have to ammend what I said. I had a conversation with my buddy and a friend, also into boating. My friend said that a ferry had sounded three blasts also; I recalled this conversation after my posting.

The ferry could have been signaling with three blasts, but instead, two long and one short, this mean that I as "A" boat, astern B boat, am overtaking it on the starboard side. If you are in agreement, you sound two long and one short back. My buddy from BC Ferries felt that they should decease from sounding the overtaking on starboard tack sound signals as he finds it only confuses the recreational boating community.

I just bought one of the "Captain's Quck Guides - Rules of the Road and Running Light Patterns" because of your post. I had difficulty finding the sound signals in either edition - old and new - of Chapman's.

So you can have four different sound signals using three blasts:

1) Three short ... going astern
2) Two long, one short --. overtaking on your starboard
3) Three short ... pilot vessel in restricted visibility
4) One long, two short -.. vessel not under command, restricted in ability to move, constrained by draft, sailing, fishing, twoing or pushing, fishing at anchor, or restricted at anchor
__________________
rsn48 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2006, 17:42   #25
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Out there doin' it
Boat: 47' Olympic Adventure
Posts: 2,634
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsn48
1) Three short ... going astern
2) Two long, one short --. overtaking on your starboard
3) Three short ... pilot vessel in restricted visibility
4) One long, two short -.. vessel not under command, restricted in ability to move, constrained by draft, sailing, fishing, twoing or pushing, fishing at anchor, or restricted at anchor
I say again - three short means "I am operating astern propulsion" not "I am going astern".
Pilot vessel is four short (morse H).
1 and 2 above are for vessels in sight of one another; 3 and 4 are for use in or near areas of restricted visibility.

Kevin
__________________
Lodesman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-09-2006, 19:58   #26
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: VANCOUVER,, CANADA
Posts: 8
I was coming from Ganges going to Crescent Beach. I was following about 1/2 mile behind another sailboat who had traversed the port side of the Pass ahead of me. This sailboat crossed over to the starboard side of the pass just at the corner where the ferry was to appear 5 minutes later. The ferry came around the corner and i saw him about 1 mile away. I said to myself, Self, he's going to pass you on your starboard. I was paying attention. I was close enough to the shore so that i could turn into the ferry's wake yet not be pushed into the rocks. The ferry turned sharply to his starboard. His port side rose at least 4 feet as he turned. This was not a slow simple turn. Fron my vantage point about 1/2 mile away this turn was not smoothly done. The point is that he turned, after seeing where i was, into my path. Now whether i was in the wrong lane or not, why did he do this? There were no other ferry's in or coming into the pass except for him. During our time in the pass there were no other ferry's.
__________________
JIMBO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2006, 07:36   #27
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Out there doin' it
Boat: 47' Olympic Adventure
Posts: 2,634
JIMBO,

I'm not trying to exonerate the ferry's crew, as I've seen BC Ferries pull dumb moves too. But 99% of the time their actions are sensible, legal and predictable. You haven't answered all the questions, and since we've only got your perspective here, it would be nice to have more details of the event. From what you've said, you were heading East in the pass and the ferry was travelling westward. I take it you were at Matthew Pt, as the ferry was rounding Mary Anne Pt. If this is the case, then you were in a channel 500 yds across and the ferry had to make a course change from about 170 to 275, which is a sharp turn for a large vessel. Factor in a current up to about 5 knots and significant eddies, and a precise turn is very diffiicult indeed. You said he veered violently, but it sounds more like he just made the usual turn one should expect - the only alternative for him would be to run into Mayne Island.

Since you were on the ferry's starboard side at the outset, I don't see how you could have seen his port side rise 4 feet??? Unless, being at the end of his turn you could see his port side, then I would guess he felt you were in a head-on situation and therefore expected you to alter to starboard and pass red to red, as required by the rules. You said he had 3/4 of the channel to pass you - that means in a 500 yard wide channel, where one should be within the right side 250 yards, you were smack dab in the centre of where he expected to be going. When you "scooted out of his path" which way did you go?

Answers to previous questions would be appreciated.

Kevin
__________________
Lodesman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2006, 10:46   #28
Registered User
 
rsn48's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Deep Cove - North Vancouver, BC
Boat: Catalina 27 - Leaky Cauldron
Posts: 350
Here is a page of photos of all or almost all of the ferries to help you identify which ferry it was. My son is a "Ferry freak" and knows all the statistics, routes, schedules etc of the BC Ferries. Often he will go on the ferry to study for his university exams - he says he finds the ferry ride calming. You can also get passes that last several days or more which he has purchased and spent the entire time riding all the Ferries in the fleet.

http://www.pbase.com/kstapleton
__________________
rsn48 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-09-2006, 13:42   #29
Senior Cruiser
 
Alan Wheeler's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Marlborough Sounds. New Zealand
Boat: Hartley Tahitian 45ft. Leisure Lady
Posts: 8,038
Images: 102
We have a similar situation here in the Marlborough Sounds. In the Queen Charlotte Sound, is a town called Picton. It is the end of the road for the South Island and we have large Ferries that ply the Cook straight to Wellington. Much of the Sound trip is narrow, but there are several shorter passages that are very restricted. The most difficult is the Tory channel entrance from the straight. This is a very narrow cutting that only one vessel can navigate at a time. The rest of the channel is deep water, but very narrow. We have a local bylaw that over rides maritime law, that gives the Large Ferries compleate right of way, even to vessels under sail. It is boaters that must give way and stay out of the way of all the large commercial vessels. There are many variuose points in their course where they have to make very abrubt turns to navigate the windign channel. At present these vessels are allowed to do 18knts within the sound.
But it doesn't matter where in the world you are, in a restricted water way, it is a given that the "ship" will most likely have a right of way, due to confined navigation, so you need to be prepared for what ever.
We do have several very narrow passes around our area adn it is usual practice to warn via ch16 ten minutes before entering the confined pass of your vessel, your type and your direction. Some do, some don't, but it is good practice to do so.
__________________
Wheels

For God so loved the world..........He didn't send a committee.
Alan Wheeler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-09-2006, 17:03   #30
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Out there doin' it
Boat: 47' Olympic Adventure
Posts: 2,634
Hey JIMBO, you still with us buddy?

Wheels - the bigger ferries do a 'securite' call before going into Active Pass, but it's really directed towards larger vessels (500 tons and up) so they usually don't expect a reply from rec boats.

Kevin
__________________

__________________
Lodesman is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
'79 Formosa Ketch: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly? CSY Man Monohull Sailboats 93 22-09-2017 20:57



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:58.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.