Crew of S/V 'Sanctuary' Abandon Ship

[SaltyMonkey]

Originally Posted by Don Lucas

wow, I find myself kind of conflicted

I'd go sailing anytime

[sabray]

From the studies I have seen and evaluating forum posts. There is a time when sex is safer then other times.. This is known as rhythm. This can be scheduled. You should schedule your sex and not your sailing. When on a boat if you waited for good weather the right time and all equipment in top form well you would be waiting I still think sailing unprepared is safer much safer then unprepared sex
yours truly Ann
Please sea my column in salty hound.titled sex sailing and ethical choices.

[Joli]

Sigh...... I'll try this one last time.

The number series are built to a target market at a price point for the intended use of the majority who use it. (ie floating weekend condos with a stick and sails). They are designed, built and marketed to the weekend sailor. Nothing wrong with that philosophy, the bulk of the market are weekend sailors.

Go below in a Bene number boat, though the laverette hatch, not the companionway.

You see the boat is a pan lined boat with glued in bulk heads, they are not tabbed and do not distribute loads. The sales guy will tell you the glue is stronger then glass, true..but the bulkhead is point loaded and will eventually tear way from the hull when flexed enough, either by tearing the glass laminate or breaking the bulkhead.

Now look at the hull deck flange, you see this is only 2 inches or so and the mechanical attachment are fairly wide spaced, the bond is not a glass bond but 5200.

Next look around the hull, do you see any transverse or longitudinal stringers? No? How do you stop panel flex from destroying the glued in bulkhead?

OK, moving on to the First series, again go below. Now you see a larger hull flange with more mechanical fasteners, and while it's a pan boat it does have tabbed bulkheads and you will see stringers. This hull is built to a stronger scantling (as a racing boat it needs to be). My guess is the older First series Bene have the best scantlings and weaks spots such as inadaquete seacocks have been replaced.

Are Bene's First Series built to the same scantlings as Oyster or Hinkleys? No, go below and look at construction and compare them.

Next time you go to a show spend some time looking at the construction of the boat through the lazerette and under the floor boards. You wil see the difference and relaize ISO 12215 is more of a design standard then construction standard.

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

PLease joli, stop criticising the Bene

As to Cat A and the RCD
RCD must have compliance with ( amongst many other ISO standards)
ISO 12217 ( stability and buoyancy)
ISO 11812 ( watertight and quick draining cockpits)
ISO 12216 ( standards of portlights and windows)
ISO12215 ( hull construction & scantlings)
ISO 15084 ( strong points for towing).


Dave

[osirissail]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

-- Virgintino via Bermuda

...and what I've always understood.

check out: Free Cruising Guide » A THINKING MAN’S GUIDE TO VOYAGES SOUTH~the many facets of Caribbean Cruising

Another excerpt from the same referenced new guide from Frank Virgintino:

KEY ELEMENTS FOR THIS PASSAGE:
a. Timing as to the weather. Good weather forecasting
b. A well tested vessel that is capable of offshore voyaging and equipped accordingly
c. An experienced crew who is capable of offshore passage making
d. Choosing this route means you have chosen to arrive in the EASTERN Caribbean

[s/v Beth]

Design and construction probably should be on a different thread- probably. I say this because it is really a complex issue (how this issues interact with the crew during a storm and influence the rescue call) What I would like to know is:
There have been four boats I know of that have required rescue. Does anyone know who built them all?
And how many of them employed drogues, parrachuetes or warps?

[bene505]

Originally Posted by Quarter Boy

Observations on being Hove to in Heavy Weather: Launching and Recovery of Ship's Boats [ A Ships Perspective ]

Exchanges with Richard Woodman: Elder Brother of Trinity House; Master Mariner (FG)
noted Nautical Historian & Author

************************************************** ***************************
From: David Garside
To: Richard Woodman
Dear Sir,
I recently purchased a copy of "Fiddlers Green" and am slowly, on account of the minuscule print and my less than 20/20 eyesight, making way through a most enjoyable read.

Your account, of Phemius's waltz in and about a hurricane's centre (pages 115-120); Of the trials of her crew, their drawn out struggle to stave off disaster and the spirited persistence of her Master, is outstanding. However, in crediting his ship's salvation to the soothing effects of oil poured through the latrines, I do wonder if credit was given to the wrong phenomena.

The SS Arabian Prince, a small 3 hold 10 knot Mediterranean trader, whilst en-route to Malta suffered an engine breakdown somewhere north of Cape Bon. Winds at the time were gale force and as we lost steering the vessel hove to with the wind almost directly abeam.

Initially heavy seas breaking against our starboard side landed green water on deck and sent heavy spray sheeting high into the air. Then slowly, under the press of wind, we commenced a steady set to leeward whilst the displaced water, drawing under the keel, roiled to the surface.

As we drifted downwind this up-welling water, now extending well to windward, served as a wave and swell dampner. Breaking seas which reached into the disturbance simply melted away and the ship's motion was greatly eased.

Oil slicks do not drift upwind and it is very doubtful a deep drafted vessel would set to leeward more quickly than would a surface oil slick. This being the case it's difficult to see how oil trickled through a ship's latrine could have made it's way to windward.

On the other hand a curtain of vertically disturbed water, equal in depth to a ship's draft, is a most formidable barrier to any horizontally propagating surface wave.

Sincerely yours
David Garside

************************************************** ****************************
Dear David,
Sorry about the small print and the typos. I also attach a couple of significant corrections to Fiddler's Green. Re your point. you may well be right.
In the event, as far as the book was concerned I was keen to rely upon Captain Evans's own account for purposes of historical verification.

However, like you I have observed this many times, first when I was serving in Ocean Weather Ships in the North Atlantic and we lay a-hull and drifted to leeward at 4 knots. I wrote a paper for the Nautical Institute some years ago in which I described techniques for lowering boats in bad weather, having had many years of experience thereof in Trinity House Vessels when servicing aids to navigation.

Often there was a better smooth to windward than to leeward and I never ever lowered a boat on the leeward side with my ship beam on, the poor boat cannot escape from the ship's side and can end under the lee anchor.
Best wishes,
Richard

...

This is the effect seen when hove to. It's also the main premise of Heavy Weather Sailing by the Pardeys. In thier bok, they use a sea anchor to fine-tune the angle of the boat to the oncoming waves.

I haven't tried it yet, but IIRC they talk about having a dry deck even in breaking waves.

Can't wait to see the video of the rescue.

Regards,
Brad

[SaltyMonkey]

Originally Posted by bene505

This is the effect seen when hove to. It's also the main premise of Heavy Weather Sailing by the Pardeys. In thier bok, they use a sea anchor to fine-tune the angle of the boat to the oncoming waves.

"Heavy Weather Sailing" was written by K. Adlard Coles and Peter Bruce, not by any of the Pardeys.

You might be thinking of Amazon.com: Storm Tactics Handbook: Modern Methods of Heaving-to for Survival in Extreme Conditions, 3rd Edition (9781929214471): Lin Pardey, Larry Pardey: Books

[boatman61]

This is what I've found when hove to or lying a hull in a blow... eg in the Biscay the swell was 7m and wind driven waves of 1.5 - 2m.... the only time the boat got 'slammed' was the rare occasion that a wave broke as we reached the top of the swell...
Yes a freak wave may roll me but barring that I'm more comfortable than sailing and so is the boat...

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by bene505

This is the effect seen when hove to. It's also the main premise of Heavy Weather Sailing by the Pardeys. In thier bok, they use a sea anchor to fine-tune the angle of the boat to the oncoming waves.

I haven't tried it yet, but IIRC they talk about having a dry deck even in breaking waves.

Can't wait to see the video of the rescue.

Regards,
Brad

I am confused. Your quote is about lying ahull.
Hove to and hanging to a sea anchor are not the same thing at all.
Neither is lying ahull.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Joli

Sigh...... I'll try this one last time.

The number series are built to a target market at a price point for the intended use of the majority who use it. (ie floating weekend condos with a stick and sails). They are designed, built and marketed to the weekend sailor. Nothing wrong with that philosophy, the bulk of the market are weekend sailors.

Go below in a Bene number boat, though the laverette hatch, not the companionway.

You see the boat is a pan lined boat with glued in bulk heads, they are not tabbed and do not distribute loads. The sales guy will tell you the glue is stronger then glass, true..but the bulkhead is point loaded and will eventually tear way from the hull when flexed enough, either by tearing the glass laminate or breaking the bulkhead.

Now look at the hull deck flange, you see this is only 2 inches or so and the mechanical attachment are fairly wide spaced, the bond is not a glass bond but 5200.

Next look around the hull, do you see any transverse or longitudinal stringers? No? How do you stop panel flex from destroying the glued in bulkhead?

OK, moving on to the First series, again go below. Now you see a larger hull flange with more mechanical fasteners, and while it's a pan boat it does have tabbed bulkheads and you will see stringers. This hull is built to a stronger scantling (as a racing boat it needs to be). My guess is the older First series Bene have the best scantlings and weaks spots such as inadaquete seacocks have been replaced.

Are Bene's First Series built to the same scantlings as Oyster or Hinkleys? No, go below and look at construction and compare them.

Next time you go to a show spend some time looking at the construction of the boat through the lazerette and under the floor boards. You wil see the difference and relaize ISO 12215 is more of a design standard then construction standard.

Your comments maybe correct or not. Really you need a professional to pass judgement on adhesive etc.

The reality is despite this. These boats are designed and sailed all over Northern European waters. They cross oceans, they survive countless storms. The bulkheads dont detach the deck stays attached. You get the same deck hardware as oysters etc. There's simply no consistent evidence to back up the conclusion you allude to.

On top of that they have to pass the minim um that is CAT A.

What you get in oysters and the like is hours of craftsman ship in teak. What you get in a beneteau is seconds of CNC cut furniture. Both though are strong.

Dave

[hellosailor]

Much has been written over the years about the way some "new" boats, including BendyToys, have used the hull liners (pans) instead of bulkheads and conventional layup because it is stronger and lighter than 50 year older designs. And debates over whether that's a problem, because the liner blocks hull access if the hull is punctured. But I've never heard the Bendy system called inferior in structural strength, by anyone, over all the years.

I may not agree with some things (like iron keels) but give them credit for TRYING to improve some engineering and sometimes doing it. Like getting rid of stainless rudder posts guaranteed to fail, and using cf instead. Even if they sometimes do odd things, like make the rudder deeper than the keel, asssuring grounding damage to it.

Likewise, 3M 5200 is at least as strong as a typical solid glassed joint, the stuff has even been used to glue keels onto hulls and once it sets up, EVERYONE bitches about the fact that it is impossible to remove or break the bond. Since the wings of combat aircraft are often GLUED ON these days...I'd really have to think a hull-deck joint adequately laid up with 5200 was going to be forever. No leaks, or repairs, possible. And mechanical joiners in that would only be needed to hold it during setup, you wouldn't need many and they wouldn't be taking any load after the joint cured.

Bendy toy? OK, it ain't a Hinckley. But you could do a whole lot worse!

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by boatman61

[FONT=Comic Sans MS](...) in the Biscay the swell was 7m and wind driven waves of 1.5 - 2m.... the only time the boat got 'slammed' was the rare occasion that a wave broke as we reached the top of the swell...

So I take it the swell did not break and the wind waves were too small to make damage.

Do NOT try this in any real seas going. One of these days you will get caught.

My own attitude in any serious seas: keep on sailing (tight reaching) or keep on running. Stay active, do NOT go down below and let the boat 'take care of herself and her crew'. (BUHAHAHA). Ups, sorry.

My own attitude reflects my own experiences. Small boat, some heavy weather sailing.

b.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The reality is despite this. These boats are designed and sailed all over Northern European waters. They cross oceans, they survive countless storms. The bulkheads dont detach the deck stays attached. You get the same deck hardware as oysters etc. There's simply no consistent evidence to back up the conclusion you allude to.

Dave

Yes, they do sail all over Northern European waters, yes they do cross oceans, yes they survive SOME of the countless storms that they encounter. However, the subject boat of this thread DIDN'T survive its storm. Would some other boat have survived the same conditions? Who knows? But more robust construction might well have done the trick.

I'm not sure if the attached photos will mean anything to you. They are of a Bennie that had a collision with a steel boat, and was brought to the Yamba marina in NSW for repairs. It didn't sink, but it was a near thing. The forward sections collapsed, the stem fitting flew off, the mast fell down, no one was injured AFAIK. It gave a good chance to inspect the layup and other construction details. Neither I not the shipwright doing the repairs were very well impressed.

Yes, this was just one of thousands of intact Bennies, but it made me take notice. YMMV.

Cheers,

Jim

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

So I take it the swell did not break and the wind waves were too small to make damage.

Do NOT try this in any real seas going. One of these days you will get caught.

My own attitude in any serious seas: keep on sailing (tight reaching) or keep on running. Stay active, do NOT go down below and let the boat 'take care of herself and her crew'. (BUHAHAHA). Ups, sorry.

My own attitude reflects my own experiences. Small boat, some heavy weather sailing.

b.

Well I got into Viviero... two locals did not... they were crew on one of the
three big fishing boats that went down within 50 miles of me... 2 Spanish and 1 Portuguese... with a total loss of eleven..
waves/swell was breaking but only slammed me occasionally...
(NW swell, W Gale....) mainly she'd ride it
Way I look at it... boat this small clear the decks, go below and shut up ship... if conditions are bad enough to be knocked down/rolled when hove to... then they're that much greater running before in those conditions and I'm confident my chances are better warm and dry below than sitting in the cockpit...
One day you'll crap out running before.... maybe...(Buhahahahahahahahaha..... Opps... sorry)
Each to their own...

[markpierce]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

I'm not sure if the attached photos will mean anything to you. They are of a Bennie that had a collision with a steel boat, ...

How well did the steel-hulled boat fare?