Crew of S/V 'Sanctuary' Abandon Ship

[Ironhorse74]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Its unlikely that any sail combination would have made any difference. The 393 is a robust vessel, and Beneteau make them strong. ( that story puts to bed all this nonsense about bluewater rubbish).

Dave

To quote Captain Orion "The shock of the sea waves caused structural damage to the hull and possibly delaminating the fiberglass."

I actually think it opens up the subject of Water boats">blue water boats and the plastic fantastic

Your mileage may vary

Brad

[bazzer]

This thread is very interesting, mainly because the skipper is willing to put his comments up. In the older days and I mean old, there might have been a inquiry to figure out the rights and wrongs of abandoning ship.
I have watched the raw video and I see a boat totally out of control, so the first question I have is " why was that" surely some kind of drouge or sea anchor would have helped stabilize the boat and at least put a quarter into the seas and wind?
Secondly, why did all the electrics fail? A secure battery should at least work after being inverted? One good reason for using AGM's maybe. I'm surprised that there was enough power for a radio from a solar panel, I would have thought that would be the first thing to be washed away.
Why was there diesel in the cabin? Again, a knock down would leak a small amount through the breathers, but the tank should remain intact.
Why did the liferaft get washed away, yet the large Bimini remain intact? A liferaft should be pretty firmly attached to the boat in all conditions.
What is the object on the foredeck? Looks like a inflatable to me, how come this stayed with the boat yet the liferaft is missing?

Surfing at 15knots sounds like suicide to me and a recipe for a broach and knockdown in those conditions, why no tat least slow the boat with a warp?
I'm a old boy with limited bad sea experience, I look for a safe haven when the forecast is bad.
But just so you know I row a boat for a living, yes really, with 24,000 miles under my belt, ok it's only on a river or two, but I was a pro skipper out of Boston for a while and I do know that owners can be demanding and sailing decisions can be based upon their needs rather than common sense..
My last name is Byng, a relative of a certain Admiral Byng who also made a unwise choice.. Google it if you like!
I would dearly like to understand what went wrong in a effort to make me a safer sailor.
Bazzer

[stevensuf]

The leak, wherever it was, must have been fairly minor ,since they could keep up with it with electric/manual pumping.

A simple through hull going wrong will let in 3000gph, very few pumps on most boats will keep up with this (take your pump rating and half it for the true rating).

I wonder ,if it was the skippers own boat as to whether it would have been abandoned or not? Lets face it , it's much easier to walk away when its not your loss.

I think bendys , like most boats are solid below the waterline, only the upper deck is laminated (please correct if wrong?)

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by bazzer

This thread is very interesting, mainly because the skipper is willing to put his comments up. In the older days and I mean old, there might have been a inquiry to figure out the rights and wrongs of abandoning ship.

Apart from being nice - a practical aspect to a (non-owner) Skipper getting his version "out there". An owner Skipper would be better advised to wait for the insurance check to clear.........

I have watched the raw video and I see a boat totally out of control, so the first question I have is " why was that" surely some kind of drouge or sea anchor would have helped stabilize the boat and at least put a quarter into the seas and wind?

I think she was intentionally lying ahull as part of the rescue, so not an indicator of how she was being sailed previously.

Secondly, why did all the electrics fail? A secure battery should at least work after being inverted? One good reason for using AGM's maybe. I'm surprised that there was enough power for a radio from a solar panel, I would have thought that would be the first thing to be washed away.

This was a charter spec boat on delivery, so would not have been upgraded above basic by an owner. That solar panel surviving does surprise me. as does the dinghy on deck......

Why was there diesel in the cabin? Again, a knock down would leak a small amount through the breathers, but the tank should remain intact.

A little diesel goes a long way! That would have been the icing on the cake to living in a washing machine

Surfing at 15knots sounds like suicide to me and a recipe for a broach and knockdown in those conditions, why no tat least slow the boat with a warp?

Suicide is a bit harsh, albeit surfing at 15 knots well outside my comfort zone

Personally after the first knockdown (and certainly after the 2nd) I would be considering a new approach

[Quarter Boy]

For this, my first ever post, a brief introduction might be appropriate. I hold a Master Mariner's (FG), Certificate of Competency and have 20 years of world wide commercial seafaring experience. For pleasure purposes only have delivered yachts north and south along the US coast and from the US to the British Virgin Islands. I was also a passenger on the Norwegian Gem.

With increasing concern I have read the claims and self serving statements proffered by Thierry Simon and marvelled at their ready acceptance by all but a few. The rare and muted criticism of his seamanship is to me, the most surprising.

Perhaps 44 years of claimed seafaring experience combined with his obvious confidence and presentational skill have dazzled his audience but, when life limb and property are at risk, it behoves one to look beyond the smoke and mirrors.

The Master who looses his ship is invariably held accountable and, unless he can convince a board of inquiry he is blameless in the vessel's loss, his Certificate of Competency is the next causality. Seemingly however, such standards of responsibility are not applied to yacht masters, rather the opposite, Thierry Simon seems well on his way to adding "acclaimed maritime hero" to his lengthy resume.

A resume all interested parties might benefit from by perusing.

Google "Thierry Simon yacht deliveries" then hit on "THIERRY SIMON - Canada | LinkedIn"

In a work history stretching from 1988 to 2008 there is no mention of seafaring and his MCA Master of Yacht listing is dated as recently as August 2011 !

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by Quarter Boy

I was also a passenger on the Norwegian Gem.

Do you know anything of interest about the incident? (Photos?).

FWIW my Linkedin misses out quite a bit - stuff like that simply gets written / re-written according to the expected audience. Main purpose is to keep a line of communication open to folk who may one day be useful (but probably won't be) and who you can't be ars#d to speak to - let alone meet.

And it's also not Facebook where every fart gets recorded

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Quarter Boy

For this, my first ever post, a brief introduction might be appropriate. I hold a Master Mariner's (FG), Certificate of Competency and have 20 years of world wide commercial seafaring experience. For pleasure purposes only have delivered yachts north and south along the US coast and from the US to the British Virgin Islands. I was also a passenger on the Norwegian Gem.

With increasing concern I have read the claims and self serving statements proffered by Thierry Simon and marvelled at their ready acceptance by all but a few. The rare and muted criticism of his seamanship is to me, the most surprising.

Perhaps 44 years of claimed seafaring experience combined with his obvious confidence and presentational skill have dazzled his audience but, when life limb and property are at risk, it behoves one to look beyond the smoke and mirrors.

The Master who looses his ship is invariably held accountable and, unless he can convince a board of inquiry he is blameless in the vessel's loss, his Certificate of Competency is the next causality. Seemingly however, such standards of responsibility are not applied to yacht masters, rather the opposite, Thierry Simon seems well on his way to adding "acclaimed maritime hero" to his lengthy resume.

A resume all interested parties might benefit from by perusing.

Google "Thierry Simon yacht deliveries" then hit on "THIERRY SIMON - Canada | LinkedIn"

In a work history stretching from 1988 to 2008 there is no mention of seafaring and his MCA Master of Yacht listing is dated as recently as August 2011 !

This is a very mischievous post. What purpose does it serve ?

As to the issues

- heaving to. Anyone who has sailed such typical modern boats knows that heaving to doesn't work above a certain wind and sea state. The boat will simply not lie in that state for any length of time. Any sea that I can heave to in , I could actually sail in.

Pardys, sea anchors, etc- I have all the Pardys stuff. I disagree with most of it as it's specific to their experience in a particular boat. Little translates well to modern canoe bodied fin keel and spade rudder boats.

Boat strength - I'd be very suprised that the hull was actually delaminating. The Captain provides no real insight as to how he knew. Despite some people views. These boats are strong and well built. They so have drawbacks in bad weather especially in battery security.

Delivery issue. - small boat delivery is a tricky game, you are taking an uncoded vessel. You generally do not know the underlying problems and this is just the way it is. They did have all the basic gear and beacons sat phone etc.

Crew. Whether the crew is paying or not very few are " professionals ". They are there for fun. Hence if it gets to the point where there is a serious risk of injury or typically the crew get very frightened, thees really not much you can do but ask to be rescued. Continuing on risks the crew, never mind the boat.

In the days of commercial sail. The boat was more important then the crew. Crew were regulary lost on stormy passages. This was the accepted thing. It is not anymore and especially on leisure vessels

Whether the Captain should be penalised or whatever is irrelevant. No comparison is really possible between large ships and small pleasure vessels. Small vessels and their crew get overwhelmed quite easily.

Learning. - while listening to the report etc , it's my experience that little can be learned in these incidents. Most of the real issues and dynamic occurs between the crew. The construction of modern boat interiors also renders them very poor at crew protection. The inside turns into missiles, the crew gets battered about, batteries break loose. Diesel seeps out etc. Hence crew safety means getting them off the boat.

This is a fact of life of most modern yachts ranging from the cheaper mass produced ones right up to quite expensive semi custom ones.


Dave

[osirissail]

The last few posts finally get to the core of any value in this incident. IMHO the captain did one thing correctly and one thing incorrectly.

First, he correctly ascertained that the crew and vessel and sea conditions were beyond a reasonable level of safety and evacuated.

Second, he made the near-fatal mistake of going out there in the first place (instead of a coastal passage route) with a vessel/crew not equipped for such conditions and didn't turn around and head back to shore and safer conditions after the first serious encounter with conditions obviously (to me) beyond the abilities of the vessel/crew.

[SaltyMonkey]

With the first, I agree.

With the second, that's just too hard a call to be made from the comfort of only 1 or 2 facts and post facto.

As for a sham in his background, we aren't all fooled. It's just we have no way of evaluating it fairly - especially on a forum. So all we can go on is what we can know or judge for sure....which is #1.

[captain58sailin]

Captain Thierry Simon, was the man on scene, the abandon ship was his call to make; he and his crew survived the experience, and yes did lose the vessel. My respect for him is that he even deigned to respond to this forum in any fashion what so ever. From the very first report of the vessel being lost, there have been people with literally no information, and even less real world maritime experience passing judgement on this man, and second guessing his decision making. Commanding a vessel is not an exercise in democracy, and decisions aren't made in committee; if the person calling the shots cannot make the hard choices, almost every time someone pays for it with their life. The Captain made a hard call, and his crew survived. Now he will have to stand and deliver regarding the explanation about loss of the vessel, but not here; only to the review board, where public opinion or self serving statements carry little or no weight, the facts will rule out.

[zeehag]

is not our business to evaluate his credentials, nor second guess his motives and rationale. he did what he felt was necessary.

[boatman61]

Now I'm begining to agree on 'Thread Closure'.....
Before the Inquisition gets to full flood...

[SaltyMonkey]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Now I'm begining to agree on 'Thread Closure'.....
Before the Inquisition gets to full flood...

sans !

[Joli]

QB, you fail to understand.
Critical review of anything is met with hysteria, often followed by admonishment from the mods.
Say nice things, offer smiley faces, learn nothing.

Originally Posted by Quarter Boy

For this, my first ever post, a brief introduction might be appropriate. I hold a Master Mariner's (FG), Certificate of Competency and have 20 years of world wide commercial seafaring experience. For pleasure purposes only have delivered yachts north and south along the US coast and from the US to the British Virgin Islands. I was also a passenger on the Norwegian Gem.

With increasing concern I have read the claims and self serving statements proffered by Thierry Simon and marvelled at their ready acceptance by all but a few. The rare and muted criticism of his seamanship is to me, the most surprising.

Perhaps 44 years of claimed seafaring experience combined with his obvious confidence and presentational skill have dazzled his audience but, when life limb and property are at risk, it behoves one to look beyond the smoke and mirrors.

The Master who looses his ship is invariably held accountable and, unless he can convince a board of inquiry he is blameless in the vessel's loss, his Certificate of Competency is the next causality. Seemingly however, such standards of responsibility are not applied to yacht masters, rather the opposite, Thierry Simon seems well on his way to adding "acclaimed maritime hero" to his lengthy resume.

A resume all interested parties might benefit from by perusing.

Google "Thierry Simon yacht deliveries" then hit on "THIERRY SIMON - Canada | LinkedIn"

In a work history stretching from 1988 to 2008 there is no mention of seafaring and his MCA Master of Yacht listing is dated as recently as August 2011 !

[zeehag]

tearing apart a delivery skipper is not going to effect a learning process-is merely tearing apart a patsy.