Castro dead at 90

[Scout 30]

Originally Posted by John Holbrook

Wow that's a insular perspective.

So all the suffering the Cubans have put up with over the decades has been worth it then?

Completely missed the point. Pontificate all you want but for good or bad Cuba is what it is. No matter how it got here I think we should be pragmatic & appreciate it for what it is now. 10 years from now when there's a Walmart every few miles it will be too late.

[John Holbrook]

No I didn't miss your point but you missed mine. Many Cubans don't find it amusing, aren't grateful to Castro and would like to be as prosperous as Puerto Rico. But hey if you can spend a nice holiday in Cuba then it was all worth it

Originally Posted by Scout 30

This has all been amusing but I think the most salient point made was that, if it were not for Castro, Cuba would be just another Puerto Rico.

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by weavis

The infrastructure of Cuba needs an overhaul. In Havana buildings are crumbling, the sewage and water and electric need fixing badly. At some stage the government will look to external funding rather than pay out of their own pocket.
Somethings will change.
And that will depend on who will work and invest with them.

I think the Cuban people have proved that they do not need the US to support them, that there are other countries that do.
Crumbling infrastructures?...sure. It's been that way for almost 60 years. other then when the rich fat cats prior to 59 that had there palms painted with US money, the vast majority of Cubans went without anyways.
It's true, their life is difficult but not all Cubans want to leave.

Originally Posted by Scout 30

Completely missed the point. Pontificate all you want but for good or bad Cuba is what it is. No matter how it got here I think we should be pragmatic & appreciate it for what it is now. 10 years from now when there's a Walmart every few miles it will be too late.

I use to travel to Thailand on a regular bases back in the day as an importer. I slowly watched the fast food places grow there like a cancer and the healthy, slender Thai people become obese sit warmers.
In the 50's it was the Mafia running things in Cuba, today it might be Starbucks, McDonalds and Walmart.

[Scout 30]

Originally Posted by John Holbrook

No I didn't miss your point but you missed mine. Many Cubans don't find it amusing, aren't grateful to Castro and would like to be as prosperous as Puerto Rico. But hey if you can spend a nice holiday in Cuba then it was all worth it

Now you're now quoting a different post but are still missing my point. In this post I meant the thread was amusing, not life under Castro. I'm not offering a political opinion. And, by the way, Puerto Rico is bankrupt & I really doubt most Cubans would want to relinquish their sovereignty to be where Puerto Rico is right now although I certainly don't know that for a fact.

Wanting to visit Cuba doesn't make me a bad person & doesn't mean I support Cuba's government or the US policies towards Cuba for that matter. This is a cruising forum, not a political forum. My comments relate to cruising Cuba. If you have a problem with that maybe you're on the wrong forum.

[bletso]

Originally Posted by weavis

The infrastructure of Cuba needs an overhaul. In Havana buildings are crumbling, the sewage and water and electric need fixing badly. At some stage the government will look to external funding rather than pay out of their own pocket.

Somethings will change.

And that will depend on who will work and invest with them.

Well if the US has its way, it will be business as usual. I can guarantee though that the Chinese will be most glad to help if asked.

[weavis]

Originally Posted by bletso

Well if the US has its way, it will be business as usual. I can guarantee though that the Chinese will be most glad to help if asked.

Cuba always had a relationship with Russia. Castro never paid a penny towards the infrastructure in Havana. (although there a some show pieces and places for political reasons).
Now... years later, it is common to watch floors collapse in buildings.. the time has moved toward necessity..
The New US government is an unknown quantity in this. No one knows what will be on offer.

We will see.

[crabcake]

Chinese aid to Cuba - may be more about Military Bases than helping economies.

Also look at the Bahamian government looking to sell off fishing rights to China. While China would love to have a exclusive economic zone in the Bahamas, you can bet your bippie that are salivating over the possibility of a military and spy base there too. That, with Cuba, would put the entire east coast under a Chinese gun.

[crabcake]

Originally Posted by weavis

Cuba always had a relationship with Russia. Castro never paid a penny towards the infrastructure in Havana.

Have to disagree, Castro "sold" sugar to Russia for next to nothing and to trade out for Russian construction equipment, oil, and goods that Russia exported to him.

It would be difficult, at best, to not consider these activities as "payments."

[weavis]

Originally Posted by crabcake

Have to disagree, Castro "sold" sugar to Russia for next to nothing and to trade out for Russian construction equipment, oil, and goods that Russia exported to him.

It would be difficult, at best, to not consider these activities as "payments."

Writing miscomprehension... I never said he didnt get paid, I said he never spent a penny on Havana .. he took whatever he got for the trades and did the Castro thing for the country...

He died a very rich man...

[Gadagirl]

Originally Posted by John Holbrook

Many Cubans don't find it amusing, aren't grateful to Castro and would like to be as prosperous as Puerto Rico.

Bwahahahahah! Prosperous for the hedge funds that ran them into bankruptcy?

[crabcake]

Originally Posted by weavis

Writing miscomprehension... I never said he didn't get paid, I said he never spent a penny on Havana .. he took whatever he got for the trades and did the Castro thing for the country...

He died a very rich man...

Yes Weavis, I familiar with the expose by his former bodyguard. No miscomprehension, the issue was what you said "Castro never paid a penny towards the infrastructure in Havana." Castro was the defacto Cuban government being a dictator. I won't argue the fact that Castro didn't reach into his pocket and pay for infrastructure improvements.

Whatever economic discourse there was between Cuba and Russia (facilitated by Castro in his capacity as dictator of the country), the sugar discount for goods, services, construction equipment and oil, etc., - unless you were his accountant, I think it a very large stretch to assume all of the inflows of trade between the two countries (and subsequent diversions to other countries) went exclusively to Castro.

Of course, if you were on the ground during his reign and had access to all his financial records and accounts, I humbly apologize.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by weavis

Writing miscomprehension... I never said he didnt get paid, I said he never spent a penny on Havana .. he took whatever he got for the trades and did the Castro thing for the country...

He died a very rich man...

Is that not normal..??
Blairs, Clintons.. and countless other politicians and dictators.. its the way of the world..
However.. he did rule a country with a Health and Education system that puts many 1st?? World countries to shame.. from pretty much scratch..
Cue the stereo response..

[weavis]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Is that not normal..??
Blairs, Clintons.. and countless other politicians and dictators.. its the way of the world..
However.. he did rule a country with a Health and Education system that puts many 1st?? World countries to shame.. from pretty much scratch..
Cue the stereo response..

My ex girlfriend is Cuban. She trained as a Dr in Cuba. Pretty good doc if I say so myself. One of my Spanish clinic drs here was living in America and trained in Cuba for free. The only proviso after being accepted in Cuba is that the training in Cuba is in Spanish and that on graduation, the dr has to work in community hospitals in the States for 2 years for the people. Usually is low paid and for the people who cannot afford health care.

Castro was a strange man. He controlled the country with an iron fist and yet on some things he was adamant it would be the best. Health care as you say was one of them. Everything went through him for the final decision. I have visited Cuba two times, once at the invitation of the medical authorities as part of a teaching team for a specialist subject, and once to revisit friends....

I have no way to rationalise the mind of a dictator. Sometimes it looks like they really believe in what they are doing and sometimes it is for self gain....and sometimes it is the mix of the two. I do however think he was a little off balance in the mental department....

The future of Cuba is open to speculation and open to whatever the US government are willing to negotiate. In Florida, a lot of the Cubans are really upset that dialogue was opened and restrictions started to be lifted.. they saw it as a sell out for the years of austerity and persecution and a form of forgiveness whilst the issues still existed. The younger Cubans in the States, less embittered and not knowing the reality first hand from experience, welcomed the move towards acceptance and removal of the ban on travel and exchange restrictions.

The Cuban people have a lot to forgive and a lot to overcome. It will be a hard journey for many and no less difficult than the transition in Spain under its own murderous dictatorship for 36 years of recent origin.

I wish the people well. I hope they are strong enough to resist the excesses of Americana but I doubt it.

If the regulation of no permission to export some of the cars left behind in Cuba by the Americans is ever lifted.... some Cubans will find themselves millionaires.... lots of rare vehicles there.

I watch closely.

[mottseng]

Originally Posted by weavis

Writing miscomprehension... I never said he didnt get paid, I said he never spent a penny on Havana .. he took whatever he got for the trades and did the Castro thing for the country...

He died a very rich man...

Great cruising discussion !!

[crabcake]

Originally Posted by weavis

Writing miscomprehension... I never said he didnt get paid, I said he never spent a penny on Havana .. he took whatever he got for the trades and did the Castro thing for the country...

He died a very rich man...

No miscomprehension Weavis - misdirection on your part. And by your misdirection you obviously also wish us to assume or potentially believe you were in Cuba working for Castro and kept both government and his personal books and accounts. And by that reasoning, you have superior knowledge of all you claim.

Sorry Bud, I don't buy your boatload of you know what. But then again, I don't have to.