Question for divers

[hpeer]

Jammer,
Thanks for answers.

How many days between dives? The sites are far to far apart to do in the same dive.

[boatman61]

Just speculation but I would imagine residual gas inside the pipes could have contributed to the blast damage when they ignited.. was the greater damage on 1 or on the new line 2.
Its not like they suck out everything, valves are closed and gas at pressure remains inside the pipes..

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Jammer,
Thanks for answers.

How many days between dives? The sites are far to far apart to do in the same dive.

Typically the next day to be safe. I'm not a hypoxic trimix diver myself, but that is my understanding.

Of course, they could have just used a second diver, or a second team of divers, as the case may be. There is a school of thought that holds that buddy diving does not enhance safety on dives of this nature. Ordinarily on deep dives there's a qualified dive team at the surface ready to intervene if the dive goes badly. They will not attempt a rescue at 80m but if someone makes it back to 40m and doesn't have enough gas for deco they will send someone down to help.


I have no idea how much military divers bend the rules to meet the needs of a mission.

[Checkswrecks]

As somebody who has seen pipes on the bottom through the eyes of ROVs, they are not continuously buried in concrete. The pipe is exposed for pretty good distances between where the concrete has been put.

At least in the Gulf those big pipes are also not that hard to snag with a boat anchor. I would think this means any charges could be dropped next to them down the anchor line for the divers to then place where they want.

fwiw - I have been to bomb school.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Checkswrecks

As somebody who has seen pipes on the bottom through the eyes of ROVs, they are not continuously buried in concrete. The pipe is exposed for pretty good distances between where the concrete has been put.

At least in the Gulf those big pipes are also not that hard to snag with a boat anchor. I would think this means any charges could be dropped next to them down the anchor line for the divers to then place where they want.

fwiw - I have been to bomb school.

A magnetometer that fits in a suitcase would find that pipe easily enough. We used one in the Baltic in the 1990s. Side scan sonar another option.

I would put the charge underneath the pipe to maximise the explosive power, just as a mine breaks the back of a ship.

An 80m dive on open circuit Trimix is 20m on the bottom and 90 minutes of deco, less with a trimix rebreather, readily available in Europe and more discrete. Water would be warm in October, particularly the upper levels for deco stops as there isn't much current in the Baltic. Slight current at most, just enough to clear the silt if you disturb the bottom.

Russia does have a small coastline in the Baltic. The second boat perhaps?

[skipperpete]

Originally Posted by hpeer

I also have interest in this question and appreciate the answers, However there are some mistaken assumptions going on.

Regarding the amount of explosive, the question really is about 2 sites, not 4 as 2 were together and a 3rd separate.

Of the 2 explosions they registered 2.4 and 2.6 on the Richter scale.

These were not "shaped" charges to punch a hole. One blast took out 50 METERS of pipe, the other took out 150 METERS of pipe.

The pipe is roughly 1 meter in diameter, the wall is about an inch thick, a bit more IIRC, covered with a few inche's of concrete.

So that is why the volume of explosive is estimated as being so high, large.

This quantity of explosive needs to be delivered to 2 different pipes, in the open ocean. Assuming 2 divers per dive. A total crew of 6 onboard. No other support vessles or shoreside assistance. One voyage, up to 2 weeks.

These are the parameters around the incident already known from the investigating governmemts.

How many dives needed?
Do you need to establish a down line to the bottom or can you just jump in and swim?
How do you guide the explosives to the pipe once on the bottom?
How do you assure the sailboat makgovernments. pick up?
How long does this entire operation take?I
This was a charter boat, the charter company complained the boat was returned dirty. What are the chances this operation could be completed without leaving some noticeable damage, scratches, abrasions, whatever, that the charter company would notice?


Thanks

Thanks for the refreshing clarity Hpeer
PeteJ

[JPA Cate]

Pete7,

What are those temperatures?

TIA.

Ann

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Pete7,

What are those temperatures? TIA. Ann

Ann, similar to the English channel, so about 18c late summer say 14-15c in October in shallow depths, slightly cooler in deeper water, but never saw thermoclines in the Baltic. Drysuit with thin layers underneath for air dives. Thicker under suit with argon for inflation if going down the trimix route. Trimix is a very cold gas mix to breath on open circuit (dive cylinders rather than rebreather) so you need to take every opportunity to limit heat loss elsewhere. No heavy exercise before donning suits, so you don't sweat. properly fitting wet hood and gloves to minimise cold water flushing. Bag of toffees in a pocket to pass the time under water and give you a short term energy boost.

Thankfully Trimix is only used on the deep part of the dive as it won't support life at the surface. So an air or nitrox mix is used to go from the surface to depth were Trimix can support life. Same on the way back up, switch from Trimix and on to the travel gas up to the first deco stop and then on to a high Nitrox mix to flush the Helium and Nitrogen out of the body.

Pete

[LakeSuperior]

Here in Lake Superior we routinely used argon for suit fills on extended open circuit trimix dives. Normal water temperature at depth was 37 deg F. I would estimate that the argon buys you about 10 to 15 minutes of additional exposure at these temperatures.

However, bottom times exceeding 20-25 minutes at 80 m pretty much requires rebreather technology due to gas logistics as stated above. Dry gloves are the norm.

[psk125]

Originally Posted by Checkswrecks

As somebody who has seen pipes on the bottom through the eyes of ROVs, they are not continuously buried in concrete. The pipe is exposed for pretty good distances between where the concrete has been put.

At least in the Gulf those big pipes are also not that hard to snag with a boat anchor. I would think this means any charges could be dropped next to them down the anchor line for the divers to then place where they want.

fwiw - I have been to bomb school.

This article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_N...eline_sabotage describes each section of pipe as being encased in a concrete jacket for its entire length. Issue is moot, in any case, since however the concrete was used, the pipeline was damaged by the explosives.

[hpeer]

It seems likely one section had 2 charges because a 150 meter section of pipe was blown a considerable distance.

Another section was not blown.

And the NSQ was blown q7 hours before the NS 2 which seems to have been a smaller break.

Lots of odd stuff with this event.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by hpeer

It seems likely one section had 2 charges because a 150 meter section of pipe was blown a considerable distance.

Another section was not blown.

And the NSQ was blown q7 hours before the NS 2 which seems to have been a smaller break.

Lots of odd stuff with this event.

Well NS 1 would have had a greater amount of gas and build up on the walls so a more powerful reaction.. as for NS 2 they could have been timed charges allowing time to get out of the area.

[Wallaby]

I was informed by an expert (in explosives) that explosives have traceable chemical signatures, and that the origin of explosives used in the Nord' attack is known. Regardless of politics, I strongly suspect that Seymour Hersh is correct in his claims of direct US involvement during the BALTOPS 22 NATO exercise (June 2022) with the explosion triggered 3-months later by sonar buoy. Anything else is very likely suspect as intelligence agency cover-ups.

[volksbar]

you want to explore the plausibility of the physics?

Why not have an easier plausibility check.

In my circles everybody gets a chuckle when hearing that PASSPORTS are left at the scene of political terrorist crime scenes. And deus ex machina is held up by police to the waiting cameras!

This script started with 9/11, which made the Saudis very proud about their passport, found "by chance" by FBI in the rubble! And hold into the cameras.

While everything else vaporized - Not a Saudi passport! Saudis are so proud about their passport quality until this day.

Next was France, Charly Hebdo. The "assassains" had nothing better to do then pull out their IDs out of their wallet when escaping in a chase the police. Then they left their ID in the car, so their ID could immediately be found! And hold to the cameras!

Next a truck sadly mowing through masses of people in Cannes. Passport in the truck!

Next a truck mowing into Christmas market in Berlin - surprise surprise, the passport and nothing else from the wallet rested on the seat! Hurrah, ID found and hold up to the waiting news cameras.

Now surprise surprise, what script could be working better - the Northstream 2 super deep divers - what did they leave behind in the boat? Ahh.... their passports!

In professional political analytical circles - nobody dares to talk about the passport trail into a camera - but in backroom talks, everybody smiles and shakes their heads. That again such lack of innovation and same passport script again and again...

To my little neighbour's kids such repeating passport story is very plausible. But when growing up and starting to think for oneself - how plausible is this reappearing passport thing? People of crime making a sport of pulling their ID out of their wallet, placing it directly and obvious "my mistake" at the place of crime? So that FBI and other special police can present them immediately?

At least, not doing any final judgement, one could consider such a fabulous reappearing script.

Yet now back to the plausible-check and the diving experts,

while remaining more than curious on the result...

[Joe Okros]

There really is no mystery here, just follow the money, who stands to gain. Seymour Hirsch, one of the most respected journalists in the world knows the story. Draw your own conclusions. [URL="//https://seymourhersh.substack.com/p/how-america-took-out-the-nord-stream"]