Is Your Boat This Bluewater Tough?

[rotrax]

Originally Posted by kiwin

I am mystified why anybody would buy a boat which is clearly designed to sail poorly. It's clear that the combination of low sail area, heavy displacement, shoal draft, short waterline and increased wetted surface area along with inneficient and innefective foils is not a recipe for a safe boat. Performance and safety are part of the same equation. Can your boat sail away from danger in an adverse current?
It seems to me that in 2021 there is no reason to build slow heavy boats with small rigs, long keels , short waterlines and heavy displacement. Shoal draft can be addressed with lifting appendages or similar. Modern materials can reduce displacement length ratios. And hydrodynamics has moved on from the 19th century.

When we purchased our boat we made two columns, must haves and nice to haves.


The only vessel that fitted OUR criteria that was in the price range was the Island Packet SP Cruiser.


You can be sure that pure sailing performance was low on the list.


It is not a problem though, we have a sodding great big engine.


That renders your criticisms irrelevant, does it not?


If the wind will not serve, up goes the Iron Jib............................

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by kiwin

It seems to me that in 2021 there is no reason to build slow heavy boats with small rigs, long keels , short waterlines and heavy displacement.

Who is doing that?

Do you even know what boat you're talking about? Because it's not apparent from your description.

Any boats that do meet that description are designed for a specific purpose. I'm guessing mostly for cruising comfort at a certain price point.

Seems to me you're exaggerating your argument. For what reason I have no idea.

[rotrax]

A long time ago I was at a talk given by the UK boss of Honda Motorcycles. A member of the audience harangued him about the then current style of modern motorcycles, poor weather protection, lots of exposed springs and chrome plate, exposed drive chains and OTT sports styling.


The Honda guy asked what he was currently riding and was told a 15 year old BMW that had many of the attributes he was asking for.


The Honda guy then asked if he was ever likely to buy a new Honda. He was told 'No'.


The Honda guy then said, and has proved to be bang on the money "Motorcycling is now a leisure activity. Bikes like you promote are for serious commuting and touring, used daily with weather protection, easy maintenance and cleaning high on the list.
Honda make bikes like that, but they sell in very small numbers. The bikes that you criticise we can hardly make fast enough to keep our dealers with something to sell.
We are in the business of making motorbikes that we can sell, not bikes that reach an academic ideal of those who dont buy new motorbikes anyway."


Never heard another word from the guy in the audience...................

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by kiwin

I am mystified why anybody would buy a boat which is clearly designed to sail poorly. It's clear that the combination of low sail area, heavy displacement, shoal draft, short waterline and increased wetted surface area along with inneficient and innefective foils is not a recipe for a safe boat. Performance and safety are part of the same equation. Can your boat sail away from danger in an adverse current?
It seems to me that in 2021 there is no reason to build slow heavy boats with small rigs, long keels , short waterlines and heavy displacement. Shoal draft can be addressed with lifting appendages or similar. Modern materials can reduce displacement length ratios. And hydrodynamics has moved on from the 19th century.

I agree and so do almost all current manufacturers , the desire amongst what is a very small niche of buyers ( few who will buy new anyway ) for hydrodynamic designs from the past century is simplify an affectation and like all affectations it’s largely in the mind of that person.

That’s not to say they don’t enjoy them selves and I wish them well.

But the arguments are simply misplaced as thousands and thousands of modern boats show every day and are found crossing every ocean.

[hpeer]

I think the above post about motorcycle sales is spot on. There is nothing wrong with the old designs, they are perfectly adapted to a particular kind of use. New designs are different because most people now want something different, their usage is different, and there are more than enough used older designs for those who want them.

The vast majority of boating losses come from Captain Error, modern or traditional design. We each adapt, or should, to the strengths and weaknesses of our particular boats. And if we do not the the failure is with us, not the boat. If we have trouble beating to weather then we need to be wary of lee shores. If we have a modern bolted keel hanging below we need to be very mindful of running aground. The wise skipper is awake to his boats limitations and acts accordingly.

[rotrax]

Originally Posted by hpeer

I think the above post about motorcycle sales is spot on. There is nothing wrong with the old designs, they are perfectly adapted to a particular kind of use. New designs are different because most people now want something different, their usage is different, and there are more than enough used older designs for those who want them.

A sound and accurate reply.


I find Americans to be quite a conservative people. They like strong, tough practical things. Like vee eight pick up trucks and Mack Trucks.


Bob Johnson the Island Packet designer had previously been an aerospace engineer, designing rockets for IIRC, McDonnel Douglas. I imagine he was up to speed with hydrodynamics as well as aerodynamics..................


Island Packets were designed with short masts - hence the small sail rig - and shallow draught for one very important reason.


They can all navigate the USA's Intracoastal Waterway. They fit under the bridges and dont hit the bottom in the channel.


Bob Johnson believed this allowed him to sell 50% more new boats. His customer base was expanded to those who had no serious offshore use in mind but wanted to be on a strong, solid comfortable vessel in sheltered waters. The fact that they are serious Ocean going vessels cannot be denied. My good friends Judith and Harken from Denmark are currently half way round a circumnavigation on their IP 380. Just had a picture of them at a famous glacier near Cape Horn.


Bob Johnson made a serious compromise in his design, but a compromise that worked for him and his customers.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by rotrax

A sound and accurate reply.


I find Americans to be quite a conservative people. They like strong, tough practical things. Like vee eight pick up trucks and Mack Trucks.


Bob Johnson the Island Packet designer had previously been an aerospace engineer, designing rockets for IIRC, McDonnel Douglas. I imagine he was up to speed with hydrodynamics as well as aerodynamics..................


Island Packets were designed with short masts - hence the small sail rig - and shallow draught for one very important reason.


They can all navigate the USA's Intracoastal Waterway. They fit under the bridges and dont hit the bottom in the channel.


Bob Johnson believed this allowed him to sell 50% more new boats. His customer base was expanded to those who had no serious offshore use in mind but wanted to be on a strong, solid comfortable vessel in sheltered waters. The fact that they are serious Ocean going vessels cannot be denied. My good friends Judith and Harken from Denmark are currently half way round a circumnavigation on their IP 380. Just had a picture of them at a famous glacier near Cape Horn.


Bob Johnson made a serious compromise in his design, but a compromise that worked for him and his customers.

AKA.. If its not big its crap..

[hpeer]

Hey! You calling Americans crap?
��

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Hey! You calling Americans crap?
��

No.. Just saying, according to most Yanks, if its not big its crap.. From boobs to bikes and beyond..

[hpeer]

From the land where the sun never sets and Bentleys.
OK, I get it, good fun.

[boatman61]

Stuff the Bentley's..
Gimme a Mini Cooper S any day..

[roryboy]

The only thing that saved this sailboat was the engine. It don't look like it was over sized either.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

This Island Packet is one tough boat. Can your boat survive this kind of punishment? Still think that having a protected rudder doesn't matter? Will a spade rudder survive this sort of punishment?

I think not.

For those folks who are still trying to figure out the differences between the "bluewater boats" and the not so bluewater, I think this video demonstrates the difference. Could your boat take hits like the one in the video and still survive?

Well my little columbia will survive stuff that will sink 99% of other sailboats .

1963 defender built to M.O.R.C. standards.

The second sail was circumnavigation. First was to channel islands for shakedown.

[AKA-None]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Stuff the Bentley's..

Gimme a Mini Cooper S any day..

Wait now
I’ll take a continental gt3
Whoooo hooo

[letsgetsailing3]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Stuff the Bentley's..
Gimme a Mini Cooper S any day..

So...


... a German car, huh?