Getting Long Distances Upwind

[StuM]

Just looked at the linked Lagoon video.
The closest to your claim that I see can only be the result of a total mis-understanding of the displays

They are making 10 Knots STW (speed through the water) while making 7.8 knots SOG (Speed over ground) so they are being set 2.2 knots. That is not VMG!

And that's in 38-40 knots of apparent wind at 35-40° apparent.

Which means they are sailing at around 50° TWA in about 32 knot TWS.

If they are making 7.8 knots SOG at 50° to the wind, their VMG to windward is about 5 knots.

(Again this is discounting any leeway - which will make the VMG much worse. Their heading is 26° and COG is 16° That extra 10° of leeway will knock their VMG down by another knot.)

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by StuM

Just looked at the linked Lagoon video.
The closest to your claim that I see can only be the result of a total mis-understanding of the displays

They are making 10 Knots STW (speed through the water) while making 7.8 knots SOG (Speed over ground) so they are being set 2.2 knots. That is not VMG!

And that's in 38-40 knots of apparent wind at 35-40° apparent.

Which means they are sailing at around 50° TWA in about 32 knot TWS.

If they are making 7.8 knots SOG at 50° to the wind, their VMG to windward is about 5 knots.

(Again this is discounting any leeway - which will make the VMG much worse. Their heading is 26° and COG is 16° That extra 10° of leeway will knock their VMG down by another knot.)

as a fixed keel cat owner you should know there is almost no leeway if speed upwind is 8 kn +. Except for seas running.

Assuming 37.5 app wind angle you get 6.6kn VMG. Current really irrelevant for my point. Presume OP boat has never seen 6.6 kn VMG so new experience waiting.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by StuM

It's wild claims like this that give us catamaran cruisers a bad name.

Do the maths. Even assuming no leeway:

7.5 VMG with a SOG of 10 knots means you are tracking at 41° TWA .

That would mean:

At 15 knots TWS: 23.4 AWS @ 25° AWA,
AT 20 knots TWS: 28.7 AWS @ 27° AWA.

Are you claiming that a Lagoon 400 can sail at 10 kts at less than 30° AWA?

actually, my thoroughly tested spreadsheet calculated that at 31 apparent, apparent wind 39 kn, boat speed 10 kn,

actual wind speed is 30.8kn and actual angle 41 deg.

As OP is talking environment where TWS is <20, this scenario is relevant.

I have done sub 90 deg tacks and well over 6 kn VMG over ground but afraid to push as far as these guys, so I believe above numbers are realistic.

[Cherod]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

I know you guys wont like what I am about to say but will say it anyway:

Buy a lagoon 400 , learn how to sail upwind and enjoy 10 kn upwind and 7.5kn VMG in comfort.

You will make long distances upwind in no time.

Enjoy !

That lagoon must be the epitome of function over form

[StuM]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

actually, my thoroughly tested spreadsheet calculated that at 31 apparent, apparent wind 39 kn, boat speed 10 kn,

actual wind speed is 30.8kn and actual angle 41 deg.

As OP is talking environment where TWS is <20, this scenario is relevant.

I have done sub 90 deg tacks and well over 6 kn VMG over ground but afraid to push as far as these guys, so I believe above numbers are realistic.

True, but show me a Lagoon 400 that can make 10 knots at 31° apparent at any wind speed!
In the video, they are making 10 knots at 36-40 AWA.
And the additional 10° leeway between heading and COG is also obvious in the video.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by StuM

True, but show me a Lagoon 400 that can make 10 knots at 31° apparent at any wind speed!
In the video, they are making 10 knots at 36-40 AWA.
And the additional 10° leeway between heading and COG is also obvious in the video.

these polars are calculated for owner that runs on AP checks sail 1 x 5 hours and have good time. Unlike polars for monos that never can be replicated by poor owner.

I was able to go 8 kn at 27 app in 30kn app or so with full sail. However no AP. This equates 6.47 VMG. I don't want to push boat that far, but if I did not care, I am pretty sure 10 kn at 31 deg is doable in no too bad seas and around 30 kn wind.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Cherod

That lagoon must be the epitome of function over form

I can see you are uneducated/mislead so here you go: lagoons are made very stiff, heavy and strong. They have relatively modest white sail plan. This means their sweet spot are higher wind speeds than other boats, where stiffness and no reefing disturbances come to play. This is valid also for upwind.

One must study and understand rig forces well before pushing boat to next level as incorrect handling can damage boat.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by Panope

Writings about the old Bristol Pilot Cutters describe tremendous ability to make way to windward in almost any weather.

Are these historians just waxing on about the beloved olden times?

Or did these very heavy boats have some kind of windward Mojo that modern boats lack?

Steve

Consider what they had at the time to compare those pilot cutters against. There were plenty enough vessels which were hard pressed to tack, even in benign conditions.

It would be interesting to see the polars on them, but so would it for a VO 70.

[hellosailor]

Dockhead, if you are hand steering and really want to squeeze out speed, you might try what North Sails used to call "wally"ing. You steer for your best VMG, according to your polars. And then you let the boat fall off very slightly, so it raises your speed ABOVE your "correct" best VMG. As you gain the extra fraction of a knot, you head back up onto your proper course.
You should still be carrying some of the extra speed and momentum, enough so that it more than compensates for the time you were slightly off. Obviously, some experimentation is needed to figure out "how much" and "how long" and whether that will work for you, your boat, and the sea state. But North picked up on it after they'd heard about it long ago in Australia during an America's Cup--where it was used successfully.
Could be too tedious for a thousand mile passage (yathink?) but if you're squeezing out knots...

[Suijin]

Dockhead I would certainly look into routing software if you have not already. It's an invaluable tool when you need to get somewhere as quickly as possible. Expedition is probably overkill and has a steep learning curve to get the most out of it. There are a few free programs out there that do a decent enough job for your purposes. It looks like Predict Wind is touting routing functionality but I don't have a subscription.

My other suggestion would be to upgrade your autopilot and electronic compass if you have an older model. The abilities of newer pilots when working to windward is much improved.

[Panope]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

Consider what they had at the time to compare those pilot cutters against. There were plenty enough vessels which were hard pressed to tack, even in benign conditions.

It would be interesting to see the polars on them, but so would it for a VO 70.

True enough, about those cutter's competition not being very weatherly.

Thought experiment:

What would a 60 foot boat look like if it was optimized for one and only one thing: Going to windward in open sea, with F8 + ?

Steve

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by Panope

Thought experiment:

What would a 60 foot boat look like if it was optimized for one and only one thing: Going to windward in open sea, with F8 + ?

Steve

One hull, two, or three? Though regardless of hulls, they would look much like the current generation of racing boats. With both mono & multi's having; water ballast, foils to both provide lift to weather & to keep her nose up, several headsails on furlers, square top main, large hard dodger from under which most trim adjustments can be made.

Things like MOD 70 trimarans, & VO 70's go to weather pretty dang well, last time I checked. And the canting rigs on those MOD 70 tri's... well, I'd LUV to play with one to put it mildly.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Suijin

Dockhead I would certainly look into routing software if you have not already. It's an invaluable tool when you need to get somewhere as quickly as possible. Expedition is probably overkill and has a steep learning curve to get the most out of it. There are a few free programs out there that do a decent enough job for your purposes. It looks like Predict Wind is touting routing functionality but I don't have a subscription.

My other suggestion would be to upgrade your autopilot and electronic compass if you have an older model. The abilities of newer pilots when working to windward is much improved.

Thanks -- I have also come to this conclusion. I will make this a project for this winter. Any suggestions for routing programs? I use Neptune Planner + for tidal strategy and it makes a huge difference -- incomparably better than doing the tidal vectors by hand (not to mention less work).


Concerning the pilot and compass -- I think I'm good there. I have an H2183 compass which was the best non-satellite compass when I bought it (and may still be), and the current Simrad AC42 pilot computer. I'm very pleased with it, and the Wind mode is invaluable - I mean INVALUABLE -- when sailing long distances upwind.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by StuM

True, but show me a Lagoon 400 that can make 10 knots at 31° apparent at any wind speed!
In the video, they are making 10 knots at 36-40 AWA.
And the additional 10° leeway between heading and COG is also obvious in the video.

I've blown right by a few of these upwind in my present boat, so methinks that the real performance doesn't look quite like the polars when they are loaded down with cruising gear.

I do agree however with Arsenialuga about leeway falling off with speed -- an important principle for sailing upwind and a real ace in the hole for cats which aren't loaded down with gear. And about the virtues of a modest "white sail plan" in windy latitudes.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

One hull, two, or three? Though regardless of hulls, they would look much like the current generation of racing boats. With both mono & multi's having; water ballast, foils to both provide lift to weather & to keep her nose up, several headsails on furlers, square top main, large hard dodger from under which most trim adjustments can be made.

Things like MOD 70 trimarans, & VO 70's go to weather pretty dang well, last time I checked. And the canting rigs on those MOD 70 tri's... well, I'd LUV to play with one to put it mildly.

I love Panope's question -- so what is the answer? If we exclude racing boats and concentrate on boats which will be good for long distance, high latitude cruising?

I would have thought, but would welcome any corrections, that such a boat would look like this:

1. Fairly narrow

2. Light ends to reduce hobby-horsing, pounding and submarining.

3. Light D/L but not so light that the boat becomes uncomfortable in rough conditions (so maybe 130 -- 140; my present boat is 188).

4. Maximum draft consistent with acceptable shallow water access (so for me I think less than 3 meters).

5. Maximum righting moment, but without so much ballast that D/L is compromised.

6. Minimum windage, which also means the rig should not be too tall.

Anything else? Is there something I didn't understand right? I thought a relatively fine hull is faster and also gets upwind more easily, no?