Another Keel Lost; Another Capsize

[ArmyDaveNY]

Originally Posted by surf_sail

Can you give anymore details of what Nikki and Tanner are doing and what caused the delay?

Hi Surf Sail. There is a not a lot of hard information about this but there are a few clues. Nikki said that they have been in daily contact with the Sheriff's office and other agencies and salvage companies. She said that the boat condition has changed and this has affected the salvage. She did not provide any real details.

There was an article that showed a photo at the end of the article of a boat that was broken into five or six large pieces. The article didn't specifically say it was their boat but it implied that it was.

There was also a local news program that talked about the number of boats that have grounded and that the Corps of Engineers has a contracted a company last year to dredge the harbor and it is scheduled to begin this April. The article didn't specify if the type of equipment to be used, e.g. suction, clamshell bucket, etc.

Nowhere can I find an article that specifically states the boat is actually in the harbor or if not, how far out of the channel it is. I also cannot find any reference about whether the area scheduled for dredging includes where the boat is currently located.

Given the lack of details, we really can't do anything more than speculate and wait.

[surf_sail]

Originally Posted by ArmyDaveNY

Hi Surf Sail. There is a not a lot of hard information about this but there are a few clues. Nikki said that they have been in daily contact with the Sheriff's office and other agencies and salvage companies. She said that the boat condition has changed and this has affected the salvage. She did not provide any real details.

There was an article that showed a photo at the end of the article of a boat that was broken into five or six large pieces. The article didn't specifically say it was their boat but it implied that it was.

There was also a local news program that talked about the number of boats that have grounded and that the Corps of Engineers has a contracted a company last year to dredge the harbor and it is scheduled to begin this April. The article didn't specify if the type of equipment to be used, e.g. suction, clamshell bucket, etc.

Nowhere can I find an article that specifically states the boat is actually in the harbor or if not, how far out of the channel it is. I also cannot find any reference about whether the area scheduled for dredging includes where the boat is currently located.

Given the lack of details, we really can't do anything more than speculate and wait.

Thanks. Agreed on speculation. Would be nice for them to give an update for their sponsors.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Sailorbob8599

It's hardly likely to be swept anywhere if the hull is full of sand, as well it may be, given the turbulent currents in that channel.
Dredging of river sand in my part of the world is usually done with a suction type equipment. Others may use a Clam bucket, escalator type of bucket wheel or even a backhoe. It all depends on what type your Army Corps of Engineers use as to what effect it will have on the wreck.
Other comments here suggest the hull has broken up in which case, the mast is hardly likely to remain a hazard to other vessels unless it is stuck in the sand at an angle.
Too much speculation being done here by the Corps of Armchair Critics who are all too ready to pounce on this young 'newby' couple, simply to sound "oh so righteous" simply to crucify them on the podium of public opinion.
This posting has got to be coming close to some kind of record for the number of responses.

sorry but I have to take a serious offence to your use of the word " Newby" I have been sailing the worlds oceans for well over 40 years and my last name is Newby. In future I request that you spell it newbie when refering to anyone that is new to any endeavor that is being discussed. Thanks
Now as to the rest of your post many that have posted opinions ( to include myself) are actually speaking as to experience with similar matters . Personally knowing how the early Columbia's are / were constructed I would assume that the vessel is still in one piece likely with the exception of the last. Most of the Columbia's in this era had the hull/ deck joint glassed into one unit on the inside with screws holding the rubrail on. Jmho

[Sailorbob8599]

OMG Newhaul, that's rather unfortunate for you. Have you ever considered having your name changed? The term I misspelt is new to my lexicon making me unfamiliar with the correct spelling. I'll try to not make that mistake again furthermore, it was not my intention to cast doubt upon your illustrious sailing career, however long or short it may be however, at 85 years, I think I just may have been rocking the boat at least as long as, or maybe even a little longer???.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Sailorbob8599

OMG Newhaul, that's rather unfortunate for you. Have you ever considered having your name changed? The term I misspelt is new to my lexicon making me unfamiliar with the correct spelling. I'll try to not make that mistake again furthermore, it was not my intention to cast doubt upon your illustrious sailing career, however long or short it may be however, at 85 years, I think I just may have been rocking the boat at least as long as, or maybe even a little longer???.

I'm joking about being mad I have a slightly prevented sense of humor.
With my last name you should have heard the Crap I had to put up with in the Navy

Just don't take offense its not ment

Btw we just finally sold dads 42 ft sailboat he decided at 92 its time to try living on land for a while

[Sailorbob8599]

Hey Newhaul, no offence taken. I too have a wicked sense of humour which has occasionally got me in trouble.
Congrats on selling your dad's boat, I hope to sell miy own this year as I can no longer stand on a rolling deck. Sad it may be, but it must come to all sooner or later as the good Lord never promised any one of us there would be another sailing day tomorrow; and I certainly don't want to leave my wife the job of disposing of it. ... Bob T.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Polux

..
I believe we all should be concerned with this problem that will become increasingly more frequent on boats with some age.

Many think that a keel is something that will not need maintenance and will last as much time as the hull. The bolts need to be changed way before. They may look impeccable and have metal fatigue.

We need industry guidance and rules regarding inspections.
..

You may want to have again a look this post http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2584749
where there are more information about this subject.

But the point is that it seems that, even if on the forum very few think that mandatory keel inspections are fundamental to solve the problem, others think they are and those are the ones that have the power to make it happen, namely "World Sailing" (ex ISAF).

It seems that they are going to work with the ones that supervise the RCD to make keel design supervision on new models more effective and that means not only mostly on the paper (boat project) and also and not least important, they are going to make mandatory a regular keel inspection performed by experts.

I read it on Yacht.de, the biggest sail magazine (German) in an interview. Roughly translated:

"It is planned to introduce compulsory regular examinations?

The idea is currently an annual exam, but I find that too rigid. If you only sail around Funen with your boat once a year and do not run aground, a check is not necessary in my opinion. There will probably be a criterion that takes into account the sailing time and the number of nautical miles covered....

It does not take much to verify the RCD requirements, which are relatively simple calculations, leverage laws, strength calculations. Where it gets complicated, is in what regards the millionfold loads. In each wave there is a load on the keel, these accumulated loads with different amplitudes can lead to fatigue of constructions. This causes damage that can occur when nobody anticipates it, perhaps even in relatively quiet conditions. This risk should be reduced by regular exams...........

Would that make sense from your point of view? So a kind of boat TÜV for the keel? (TUV is the German car mandatory inspection)

I think that would increase security. The problem is essential. Other areas are more secondary, not life threatening. A rig can come down without endangering the crew, even a rudder loss is drastic, but the yacht is still floating. The consequences of a keel loss, however, are dramatic... often with loss of life. To prevent that, some rules have to be implemented."

5 spektakuläre Kielverluste: Der Welt-Seglerverband reagiert

Note that World Sailing has only the means to make this mandatory in what regards boats used in ISAF races (that are many).

I am quite sure that they will have full support in EU to integrate these measures on the RCD making it not only a legislation about boat design safety but also about boat inspections in what regards safety.

On other regions for particular boats (not used for racing) it will depend on each country.

[Jim Cate]

Let us hope that this stays in the world of higher level racing. The idea of the world's cruising boats lining up for their annual keel bolt withdrawal and inspection seems enough to spark a revolution.

Increasing the level of keel design requirements for new boats is a reasonable approach, mandating professional maintenance for privately operated vessels less so.

Jim

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Let us hope that this stays in the world of higher level racing. The idea of the world's cruising boats lining up for their annual keel bolt withdrawal and inspection seems enough to spark a revolution.

Increasing the level of keel design requirements for new boats is a reasonable approach, mandating professional maintenance for privately operated vessels less so.

Jim

"There will probably be a criterion that takes into account the sailing time and the number of nautical miles covered"

Sometimes this things are 8 or 80 but in what regards several countries in Europe there are already mandatory boat inspections each 5 years a bit like there are car inspections and much less than in what regards private airplane inspections.

The problem here is that contrary to car inspections they are not made on centers that have all the equipment and protocols to test effectively the sailboats namely keels, keel bolts and boat structure.

The equipment needed for that is expensive, there are no industry protocols in what regards inspections and there are not even enough data regarding stress loads, years of use and replacement periods.

There is a need to centralize those inspections (in several centers around a country) to have the availability of the technological means to make them in a more effective way.

It is more about efective inspections then about inspections itself and the work to be done in what regards that is huge.

Of course, in what regards boats that race it will not depend on the country to be mandatory or not and they are not talking about high level racing but just boats racing under World Sailing (ISAF) and that are most of the races with some seriousness, including that one on Australia where the boat lost the keel.

[thruska]

Originally Posted by surf_sail

Looks like it's getting torn up in a hurry. Soon there won't be much left and the sandbank will swallow the rest...

It may look like torment up to you but it’s a poor photo.... the boat had sails right ? That’s not looking like breakup to me.

[surf_sail]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Let us hope that this stays in the world of higher level racing. The idea of the world's cruising boats lining up for their annual keel bolt withdrawal and inspection seems enough to spark a revolution.

Increasing the level of keel design requirements for new boats is a reasonable approach, mandating professional maintenance for privately operated vessels less so.

Jim

Mandatory keel inspections doesn't have the slightest chance of become law in the US - and that's a good thing.

Owners need to be responsible for their own boat/safety. Not to mention that the nanny state TUV approach is both highly inefficient/expensive and ineffective. I remember when my cousin took his car to the German TUV, passed the inspection, and the next day his travel trailer fell off because the trailer hitch bolts had rusted through.

You can't and shouldn't trust the government to keep you safe - especially on the high seas....

[Polux]

Originally Posted by surf_sail

Mandatory keel inspections doesn't have the slightest chance of become law in the US - and that's a good thing.
..

In what regards those that sail on serious races under ISAF (now World sailing) ruling they would not have a say and will have to do what is necessary, including inspections, if they make them mandatory, as they say that they will.

Today Americans or any others have already to comply with their rules regarding boat design safety on offshore races.

That means that the boat have to be certified as RCD category A, or if they are not having stability tests and safety inspections to prove that the boat has the minimal stability and safety requirements demanded by them (that are basically the ones required to RCD certify a boat in class A).

That will have as a beneficial effect the increased matket value of the boats that are subjected to regular inspections on the used market and a loss of value of all others.

I believe that the market and insurance companies (offering lower prices to inspected boats) will be responsible for many sailors wanting the boats inspected regularly even if it is not mandatory. Assuming the inspections have a reasonable period and an acceptable cost.

[boatman61]

I thought it was common knowledge that an MOT (TUV) is only valid for 24hrs after the test.. its just a financial tactic to screw you by the Ministry..

[El Pinguino]

Any 'mandatory' inspection of keel bolts would be driven by the insurance companies in the same way that replacement of rigging is.

Rigging over 10 years old?... sorry...

Keel bolts not inspected in last 20 or 30 years?.... sorry...

The fact that the insurers don't already do it would suggest that they don't really consider it a problem of much consequence.

[surf_sail]

Originally Posted by Polux

. Assuming the inspections have a reasonable period and an acceptable cost.

- that's a big assumption.

I should have clarified that I meant non-race US boats.

Maybe some insurances will go the route of requiring keel inspections. That's fine, you can always choose no insurance or a different one.

The thing is though how do you really inspect a keel anyways? You can't check the bolts without taking them out - and even then you'd likely need to do destructive testing to make sure they are sound. Sure you can retighten the bolts, but they likely only need tightening if they've stretched (and hence gotten weaker). Someone suggested torquing them to 60% max yield to "test" them, but my engineering training tells me I don't want to add a significant fatigue cycle like that to the bolts.

The only really effective solution with keel bolts (in my opinion) is preventative maintenance. So maybe insurance co's will require replacing the keel bolts after x years, just like standing rigging. That's fine, hopefully though they have good data to inform how many years is a good replacement cycle.