Kayaks and Death Wish

[zeehag]

power boats scare me even in my formosa---lol i think they cannot see anything at all...lol...
barge is a huge object towed by another kind of power boaT--ONE WITH A BRAIN.....

[hummingway]

And a barge in and unto itself is most often not under its own power. So I think it supports Astrid's contention that a kayak is not a powered vessel. Note she didn't suggest it was a sailboat.

[HappySeagull]

Originally Posted by AK_sailor

Often the first thing you will see is the paddles. A sort of rhythmic flash flash flash. That can also give you a clue as to which direction they are heading.

I think sometimes the paddlers (the ones who don't also sail) get confused by sail boats. They don't quite grasp the idea that sailboats have to tack in the wind. They get confused and don't understand which way you are heading.

When paddling I worry a lot more about getting run over by powerboats. The move a lot faster than sailboats, and it's harder to get out of their way in time. A big powerboat up on step, ripping around a point, scares the bejeepers out of me!

..of course,it gets worse.Sailboats upwind in channels often don't steer straight.My course will describe curves so you think you're clear but then I point higher and higher and (I wish!)higher...and I am heeled over peeking round the sails and fuddle on deck from the stern of the boat ..."where are those B##ggrs now..I count...3?"

I feel your pain!It's gotta be hard to be in the sights of those Thunderbarges!

[HappySeagull]

Originally Posted by hummingway

And a barge in and unto itself is most often not under its own power. So I think it supports Astrid's contention that a kayak is not a powered vessel. Note she didn't suggest it was a sailboat.

Good point.It's never under it's own power...while Logbooms can just have white all- rounds....
I hope never to meet a kayak or a rowboat with sailboat lights as that might confuse but I suppose we can at least hear each other yelling...
...it can get finer.When I row,I can't see ahead,unlike kayakers.Turns out,rowboats with coxns(looking ahead) give way to those without....

so the Lord of the Seaway is NOT a kayak!it's ME!in my pram!or that paddleboard...

[hummingway]

Originally Posted by HappySeagull

Good point.It's never under it's own power...while Logbooms can just have white all- rounds....
I hope never to meet a kayak or a rowboat with sailboat lights as that might confuse but I suppose we can at least hear each other yelling...
...it can get finer.When I row,I can't see ahead,unlike kayakers.Turns out,rowboats with coxns(looking ahead) give way to those without....

so the Lord of the Seaway is NOT a kayak!it's ME!in my pram!or that paddleboard...

I've had that thought about rowing. I've bumped into moored boats on the way out to my own mooring. Fortunately the inflatable just quietly bounces off

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by HappySeagull

What's a barge?A sailing vessel?It carries the same lights

Scary.... guys / gals like you are out there on the water with reasonable boaters....

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by NevP

I agree HappySeagull and beg to differ psneeld. If you read the colregs literally a kayak definitely is a power driven vessel and here's my interpretation of why.

The colregs state "The term “power-driven vessel” means any vessel propelled by machinery."

The online Oxford English dictionary defines a machine as "technical: any device that transmits a force or directs its application." There is no mention in this definition of an "engine" specifically.

Therefore by my interpretation the term "machinery" in the colregs would include ,but not be limited to, engine(s), oar(s), paddle(s) and any other mechanical form of propulsion. Therefore a kayak has the same rights as a supertanker under the colregs.

Not that I'll be challenging a supertanker in a kayak any time soon.

See my last post to happyseagull....

[HappySeagull]

not to worry,psneeld ...obviously,a barge or logboom's lights alone are out of context,because the tug's are the most important part of the display(consider the view from astern,beam on and ahead-not a sailboat,not a kayak)

so the barge's particular lights indicate it's not two independent vessels as much as being about propulsion...

[psneeld]

Originally Posted by HappySeagull

not to worry,psneeld ...obviously,a barge or logboom's lights alone are out of context,because the tug's are the most important part of the display(consider the view from astern,beam on and ahead-not a sailboat,not a kayak)

so the barge's particular lights indicate it's not two independent vessels as much as being about propulsion...

they ARE two independent vessels and marked as such....a barge IS a vessel...

[NevP]

Originally Posted by Astrid

If you read further down the regulations to #25, one will see that a vessel under oars is clearly separate from a vessel propelled by machinery and in more or less the same category as a vessel under sail:

Sorry Astrid but I still disagree. The intro to Sec 25 does combine both, stating "Lights for sailing and rowing vessels...". However subsections (a), (b), (c) and (d)1 all specifically refer to "a sailing vessel". Only subsection (d)2 specifies "a vessel under oars" which places sailing and oar powered vessels in two distinct categories.

Also, Sec 25 is only referring to lights with no mention that these classifications are to be carried over to other sections of the regs. It is possible that an inference could be made that there was an intention to include vessels under oars and sailing vessels in the same category. Unfortunately, intention has no standing in a court, only the literal meaning.

Just to be clear, I am in no way supporting the idiots out there creating a navigation hazard of themselves but there are plenty of those in every type of vessel. Would just be nice to have a definitive interpretation from someone that knows instead of all our collective opinions.

Thing is, if kayaks are classified as "power-driven" then they should be keeping clear of sailing vessels, which appears to be the preference of the majority here. If they are grouped with sailing vessels (and I can't see how) there's no way to know who gives way.

In the end I guess it's all pretty academic when everyone on the water has a different interpretation of the regs and half probably don't even know what they are (yes, probably a much greater proportion of kayakers but definitely not all).

[hummingway]

If your using a sweep on a sailboat or a sail on a kayak then what?

[NevP]

Originally Posted by hummingway

If your using a sweep on a sailboat or a sail on a kayak then what?

Sail on a kayak (if the paddle is not being used) is a sailing vessel.
Sweep on a sailboat (if sails are not hoisted) is a vessel under oars.
The difficult one is sails set plus the use of sweep/paddle. Comes back to what you classify a vessel under oars as.

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by alan_za

. In Canada they are treated just like any other vessel and follow the rules of the road as defined for power vessels.
.

Do you have to have a holding tank or can you pump it overboard?

[hummingway]

Originally Posted by NevP

Sail on a kayak (if the paddle is not being used) is a sailing vessel.
Sweep on a sailboat (if sails are not hoisted) is a vessel under oars.
The difficult one is sails set plus the use of sweep/paddle. Comes back to what you classify a vessel under oars as.

Yeah, that was really my point. I don't think the Colregs were intented to cover all situations.

[capn_billl]

This issue has been beat to death on another thread, but MY interpretation of COLREGS is, ... The more manuverable vessel is to steer clear of the less manuverable vessel. This prevents the absurd situation of a less manuverable vessel not being able to outmanuver a faster or more manuverable vessel to avoid a collision.

The same principle occurs in avionics, a balloon has the right of way over a prop driven plane because if a prop driven plane heads toward a balloon it cannot go against the wind to avoid the plane, whereas the plane can easily turn without regard to the wind to avoid the slow moving on a fixed course balloon.

The second principle which does not override the first is smaller and slower vessels should not impede larger and or faster vessels. This prevents the equally absurd situation of freighters, seaplanes, and various sailing, and power vessels stacked up in a fairway washing aground because they are below steerage speed waiting for a rowboat traveling 1/2 a knot down the center of the channel. (Think of semi's and autos stacked up behind grandma pedeling down the center of the freeway on her bicycle).

That is why we have NUC, (if no one is at the helm or ship has lost power it cannot avoid anyone)
CBD, (if the ship needs the draft of the channel it cannot leave the channel to avoid a shallow draft boat that can)
sailing craft VS power boats, (power boats can move at top speed at any point of compass, sailing craft are very limited going to wind), etc...

As a small human powered boat a kayak is very manuverable, but slow, not constrained by draft