Dealing with BSers

[bbhflts]

This may seem like a fairly stupid post, but I'm going to give it a shot anyway.

Every field seems to have them. The guys that know everything and give you the "trust me" line. When you are new to a field or sub field, you rely on the advice of those with experience. Unfortunately such an exercise illustrates your lack of knowledge and sends a signal to the BS (I know everything and will take advantage of you) types.

As an engineer, I don't trust anyone that says "trust me". My rationale being that if someone really knows their salt, they will be able to and want to explain why they have such an opinion, not just rely on such carte blanche statements.

Example: I'm looking at purchasing an interim boat to sail for the next couple years prior to commissioning my dream cruiser.

The local guy in the club hooked up to all the key members of the club and also the local surveyor has given me this line of "trust me".

I was told that the rust (1 cm thick) on the keel bolt nuts is not an issue and is cheap to fix.
I was told that gelcoat cracks are not an issue and cheap to replace.
I was told that engine oil leaks are simple to fix and not an issue.
I was told that it's easy and cheap to remove a keel to fix the seal between the hull and the keel.
I was told that there is no chance of osmosis in the boat (20 years old) as he knows the boat and it's good.
I was told that P bracket seals etc are simple to replace.

The list of BS goes on and on.

Whilst not an expert, I am an engineer and know how to research, understand, comprehend and assess.

Searching the internet, talking to friends who are experienced sailors, surveyors and veteran ship engineers, they say this guy is full of ****.

Deal breakers on any boat seem to be Osmosis, keel bolt rust, keel/hull seal failure, major engine work and rigging.

How do you avoid such charlatans whilst not falling out with their influential mates? ......Other than being polite, then doing your own research and bringing in trusted proven experts.

Food for thought.

Perhaps I'm just venting and should have expected such characters as they exist everywhere and shouldn't expect the sailing world to be full of good Samaritans as experienced on this forum.

Vented and appreciate your thoughts.

Ben.

[Cheechako]

It's BS. It all takes much longer than you would ever think and you will uncover issues in the process of fixing the one at hand. Buy the boat with the very few issues you can see... then you have a chance of keeping up with it!!

[Ocean Girl]

How do you avoid such charlatans whilst not falling out with their influential mates? ......Other than being polite, then doing your own research and bringing in trusted proven experts.

You got it.

I was helping a friend get ready for a hurricane IKE, the owner and his wife were new to boating. I convinced my friend to buy some chafe gear because he had none on his lines. A neighbor came up and told him that chafe gear was a waste of time and money, he said a proper cleat off will be sufficient. This expert, who apparently rode out many a hurricanes, sounded very sure of himself. After he walked away, I calmly explained the pros and cons of chafe gear and let him decide what to do. He used the chafe gear. IKE hit north so the boat was safe anyways.
Erika

[Feral Cement]

You might want to say, "The keel bolts will cost $XXXX and the rigging repairs will cost $XXXX and the blister repair and awlgrip will cost $XXXX........" then add it up and subtract from the asking price. You might get a boat with issues that have been priced in and you may be able to sail for some time before the repairs become "necessary". Heck, since it's an interim boat, you might sell it for what you have in it, with the issues already priced in to the next buyer.

As for BSer's - they are EVERYwhere - boats, cars, Wall Street, Congress.....be v-e-r-y careful out there.

John

[Minggat]

I'm not sure what you're really asking, but it feels like your looking for the choice of words to use on the BSers.

Years ago I heard someone use the line,
"I'm just not comfortable with......"

It has stuck with me for a long time as a non offensive way of telling someone you think/feel differently than thay do.

I also use the 3 strike system. There's .... and .... and ..... that's puts me in over my head and out of my comfort zone. And that's not to mention about ..... and ....

I am also an engineer, .... of some kind.

[bstreep]

You have found the problem in dealing with "friends". I'm in the real estate business. Never do business with friends. Because if you do, you don't have the opportunity to mkae a decision to hire/not hire a surveyor of YOUR choice.

When people ask, I just say: "I'm sorry, our friendship is too important to bring a business relationship into."

Online, I look for post counts. I take what posters with low counts say, with a grain of salt...

For what it's worth, rusty keel bolt nuts can look a LOT worse than they are. Or, they can be just as bad as they look!

[Charlie]

I take it you are not asking questions about the boat but how to deal with BS. On the boat can you say that the admiral did not like it or something nebulous like, " I thought about it and that boat is really not my style." Here is a joke that sort of fits this thread: "The Irish definition of Tact --- The ability to tell someone to go hell and make them glad to be on their way." I'm not bery good at it but I practice.

[captain58sailin]

As you have said, you are an engineer, trust your own judgement and don't buy a pig in a poke. I don't understand why you would be reluctant to offend a BS artist, usually they are very well aware of their own short comings, they are just trying to sell you. If it is a well meaning misinformed person then you can argue with them and show them the facts. All the rest, rub the side of your nose with your forefinger and give them a wink and go on your merry way. I am kind of linear that way.

[anotherT34C]

If they can't explain it, they don't understand it.

If they can't explain it, and say "trust me", it may very well be experience, which can be valuable. It can also be dangerous, as it can just as easily be superstition of sorts.

If someone can't explain something they are otherwise 'sure' about, I consider the source, and take it as a data point, weighted accordingly.

What to tactfully say? Usually I go with: "Yeah, I'm sure you're probably right, but..."

Good thing the internet is (mostly) annonymous.

[mesquaukee]

As a former engineer (research and development, retired) and then a builder of energy efficient luxury homes (retired) I completely understand.

It annoys me when bullshitters mouth off about things that are in my areas of expertise.
Some of them can get very belligerent if I point out their errors or lack of knowledge. They give me the “what do you know you are just an engineer” response. Obviously they do not know what I did or we as a group do.

A little bit of knowledge is dangerous. ******** artists evidently do not know that.
“The more you know the more you realize how little you know” is obviously a concept far beyond their grasp.
It some ways I suppose it is not their fault. They do not know one needs to be able to defend or support ones conclusions with analysis and facts. They prefer the “trust me” or “this is the way it has always been done” routine. But I suppose I am making excuses for them.

The older I get the less I can tolerate bullshitters. I have had to deal with a lot of them in the past. If it means “falling out with their influential mates” so be it. If they value a bullshitters opinion more than one based on research, understanding, comprehension and assessment I really do not need to know them. I have no desire to live with that type of irritation.

That’s my “vent”. I feel so much better.

[nautical62]

Look at the boat with nobody else on it - not the broker, and not the seller.

Then listen to the seller and ask questions to become knowledgeable, but only trust what you verify yourself. Thank the seller for his time.

Then get an unbiased survey.

[svHyLyte]

The comments you describe could apply to several of the older yachts in my own marina that are now for sale by owners that can no longer afford their up-keep because of the recession. A Saber 34; a Gozzard 36 and a few others. Even though the owners may not be particularly well liked, any number of the members of our club, including one that is, in fact, a somewhat BS'y sounding NAMS surveyor, might easily offer similar opinions about any of these boats, having known them and the owners for at least the 17 years we've been members.

I was told that the rust (1 cm thick) on the keel bolt nuts is not an issue and is cheap to fix.

Rust on the "nuts" (heads?) of keel bolts is, unfortunately, not uncommon. Given that that amount of rust produced by the process of rusting is roughly 350% or more of the volume of steel rusted, 1 cm equates to approximately .11 inches if the rust itself were solid. However, given that rust, itself, is subject to spalling 1 cm of rust likely equates to less than .1 inches and accordingly is likely not material. Replacing keel bolts "ain't" rocket science, just tedious, and rarely particularly costly.

I was told that gelcoat cracks are not an issue and cheap to replace.

Unfortunately, gelcoat--and particularly older. sun-burned gelcoat--is far more brittle than the underlying glass reinforced substrate and, particularly in older yachts with sharp turns and curves in their deck mouldings, stress cracks in the gelcoat are common and rarely indicative of much of anything. We've had that problem at certain locations on our boat, particularly so as we work her hard, and the fix is again easy but tedious. Done properly, however, (we use Marine-Tex with a touch of coloring agent), the repairs are all but invisable using the 5 foot rule (if you can't see it from 5 feet it doesn't matter).

I was told that engine oil leaks are simple to fix and not an issue.

Unfortunately, oil leaks from older engines are not uncommon. Fortunately, in most cases neither are they fatal. Mostly they are just a pain in the neck. For example, I defy one to find a Perkins 4-108 that does not leak oil, either from the front seal, rear seal (or both) or valve cover (or all three!). In some cases one can "fix" these leaks (for awhile) but 99% of the time, they are a cosmetic and convenience issue (tho' perhaps viewed as environmental issue by our "green" friends) and again of no particular consequence unless the engine is "bleeding" lube oil. For the rest of the time, just keep a little spare oil aboard the yacht and add as necessary.

I was told that it's easy and cheap to remove a keel to fix the seal between the hull and the keel.

Frankly, it isn't that difficult to drop a keel, if necessary, but its rarely necessary, even if there is 1 cm of rust on the keel-bolt heads (or "nuts"). One simply blocks the keel, frees the bolts (or nuts) and lifts the hull a few inches so one can clean out the joint and refill it with polysulfide (pray that someone hasn't used 3M 5200 in the past and one must use a hot knife to cut that free.) A "smile line" at the keel-stub/ballast keel interface is very common and, unless there is definate evidence of water penetration through the joint (i.e. rust and corrosion along the shafts of the keel bolts), there is no reason to do more than clean out the joint, refill it with sealant, fair the joint and, once the sealant has cured, torque the keel bolts.

I was told that there is no chance of osmosis in the boat (20 years old) as he knows the boat and it's good.

If the surveyor knows the boat, odds are he knows whereof he speaks. We've had 3 different boats past their 20th year of life (our current and final boat is now 23+ years old) and none suffered from osmosis. However, one can definatively determine that during a formal survey and, even if there is some osmosis (i.e. blisters), that isn't necessarily a death knell. Many fine yachts--such as certain runs of the Valiant 42--suffered from similar problems and their repairs were relatively straight forward, albeit perhaps somewhat more costly than the foregoing.

I was told that P bracket seals etc are simple to replace

Depending upon how the shaft strut is supported, they are. Tedious, and a pain in the neck, but not difficult nor necessarily costly.

Because one may not like the messenger, one should not necessarily disregard his or her message. Sometimes some of the least "likeable" people actually have valueable information--witness some of those that post here, for example. I would not necessarily disregard a yacht--and particularly a yacht that is only an "interim" venture--for the items you describe; and, certaintly not because you seem to dislike the messenger. Remember--no one was particularly enthralled with Saul of Tarsus.

FWIW...

/s/ An "old as dirt"--as my daughter would say-engineer.

[Bash]

1. Rust on the gelcoat is never good.
2. Gelcoat on the keelbolts is never good.
3. Oil seeping through the blisters should usually be seen as a warning sign.
4. There is indeed a cheap and easy way to remove the keel, it's called a "grounding."
5. The only boats upon which there is no chance of osmosis are the ones that are no longer afloat.
6. Like most "experts," I have no idea how to replace a P bracket seal.

Otherwise, the rest is not BS, it's merely "speculation."

[RainDog]

My favorite BS detector is asking questions you already know the answer to. Pretend you do not know the answer and see what they say. Ask a question they probably do know the answer to and see if they a truthful. Ask one they most likely do not know the answer to and see if they are willing to say "I don't know." Many otherwise honest people are not willing to admit they do not know the answer to something. This type of BS can be just as costly in the long run as someone dishonest.

The second important thing is to find a good surveyor. I like to find one from outside the immediate area. Ask around for someone with a good reputation. Ask your broker for a list of recommended brokers and the make sure you use someone who is not on that list. The surveyor the broker considers a PITA is the one you want to hire. I did this on my recent purchase and the broker panicked. That is a good sign. He sent me three emails about how the surveyor I chose was too thorough, too picky, took too long. The survey took 9 hours, but it was some of the best money I spent.

[Pblais]

Deal breakers on any boat seem to be Osmosis, keel bolt rust, keel/hull seal failure, major engine work and rigging.

Those are only the things you personally know about. Trust me there is always a pile of things you don't know and the surveyor will get wrong. After that you get into the expensive stuff. Boats are at best a moment in time on a given day. I've seen worse deal breakers than all of those. They don't all fail when you see the boat or survey them either.

All the money you spend on an interim boat is money down a rat hole waiting for the jackpot pf expenses to come. If the plan requires the purchase of two boats to end up with one you like then you can add more wasted cash and risk it really being three boats! Throw away boats cost too much to bother wit and the joy of owning two boats at the same time is all as bad as they say it is - trust me.