Climate Change

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by scoobert

meh, we survived the dinosaurs, we will survive 300ppm CO2

Now I'm really LMAO. This from the guy claiming a 180 IQ. You must have watched the Flintstones as a kid.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by conachair

My point is there is no evidence to suggest that humans are any different to any other animal at a species level, just blindly bumbling along, self awareness seems to change nothing, it's obvious an entire civilisation based on unsustainable free energy is a bad idea, but nothing of any significance changes.

No point saying we'd better fix it if there isn't any evidence to suggest we can.

Oh FFS. What a cop-out.

No evidence? You're just trollin' right? On the INTERNET. There's exhibit one for ya. Here's another - polio vaccine. And another - the Emancipation Proclamation

To the extent that we can think in the abstract, with symbols, to continuously learn and expand our knowledge, to analyze the past and apply our acquired knowledge to the future, we are OUTSIDE of nature. No more Garden of Eden, Eve bit the Apple, we got knowledge, and we have both the power and the responsibility to apply it. Not applying our collective knowledge and intelligence to solve our problems is an ethical failure, or sheer laziness, it's not 'nature'.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Unlike other " species" we have intellect and self awareness. Our technology gives us tremendous power over nature , when's the last time you saw a dog write a letter.
Dave

Every time he raises his leg... is it his fault you can't read dog..?

[foggysail]

If the amount of CO2 was doubled, it would still be an insignificant percentage of the atmosphere! The largest contributor to climate conditions I believe is from water vapor. So whats next, ban outdoor swimming pools???

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by foggysail

If the amount of CO2 was doubled, it would still be an insignificant percentage of the atmosphere! The largest contributor to climate conditions I believe is from water vapor. So whats next, ban outdoor swimming pools???

You got your postgrad degree in climatology from where, again? If not I expect you can cite the experimental work underpinning your conclusion. Cos you wouldn't just repeat something that goes against the overwhelming majority of scientific opinion without something to back it up, right?

[foggysail]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

You got your postgrad degree in climatology from where, again? If not I expect you can cite the experimental work underpinning your conclusion. Cos you wouldn't just repeat something that goes against the overwhelming majority of scientific opinion without something to back it up, right?

Now, now, are you referring to the percentage of CO2??? And scientific opinion, now that is a great one!!! Are you referring to such notable groups as the Union of Concerned Scientist????

If you send them $25 you also can join and then tell your friends "NOW I ARE ONE!"

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by foggysail

Now, now, are you referring to the percentage of CO2??? And scientific opinion, now that is a great one!!! Are you referring to such notable groups as the Union of Concerned Scientist????

I'm having trouble determining whether you're just another one of the jolly punsters who are having some fun in this thread, or you actually believe the rubbish you're saying. Help me out.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

To the extent that we can think in the abstract, with symbols, to continuously learn and expand our knowledge, to analyze the past and apply our acquired knowledge to the future, we are OUTSIDE of nature. No more Garden of Eden, Eve bit the Apple, we got knowledge, and we have both the power and the responsibility to apply it. Not applying our collective knowledge and intelligence to solve our problems is an ethical failure, or sheer laziness, it's not 'nature'.

Sorry LE, but you're falling into the same human-centred arrogance that has led us to the problems we're facing. If there is one lesson we need to understand is that we are not any different than the millions of species that have gone before us. We've evolved enhanced capabilities -- as all sucessful species do. But to claim we are outside of Nature (as I say we need to become) requires significant evidence. To date, I see no such evidence.

... But I do live in hope.

[foggysail]

Lake Effect---

Lets take it piecemeal and go to the water vapors first. And I must admit I have not checked with "Perg's scientists" to learn if they approve of the work by NASA who believes along with other notable groups that water has a profound affect.

NASA - Water Vapor Confirmed as Major Player in Climate Change

[hpeer]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Oh FFS. What a cop-out.

No evidence? You're just trollin' right? On the INTERNET. There's exhibit one for ya. Here's another - polio vaccine. And another - the Emancipation Proclamation

To the extent that we can think in the abstract, with symbols, to continuously learn and expand our knowledge, to analyze the past and apply our acquired knowledge to the future, we are OUTSIDE of nature. No more Garden of Eden, Eve bit the Apple, we got knowledge, and we have both the power and the responsibility to apply it. Not applying our collective knowledge and intelligence to solve our problems is an ethical failure, or sheer laziness, it's not 'nature'.

Conachair is correct. You cite a few technical advances, which promote humanity. That does not refute his point.

If i can accurately paraphrase the matter it is that humanity exploits resources with disregard to future consequences. At times humanity has made some megar attempts to stockpile against the future, farming and grain silos for example. However the very much stronger trend is for humanity to identify a resource and then over exploit it in a non sustainable fashion. History is basically a catalog of our bumbling from one resource to another and the wars fought in the process.

Tall Cedars of Lebanon
Venetian conquest of adjacent territories to build ships
Norse ventures to Iceland due over crowding at home
My ancestors from Switzerland to Philadephia with Penn due over crowding
Countless species made extinct or near extinct, with full knowledge that we were doing so
Helium!!!! Look it up. Party balloons?

Examples of conservation are remarkable because of their rarity.

To make a fair and balanced scale of our over exploitation on one side vs our planning and foresight on the other side is to simply demonstrate our innate inability to constrain ourselves.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Sorry LE, but you're falling into the same human-centred arrogance that has led us to the problems we're facing. If there is one lesson we need to understand is that we are not any different than the millions of species that have gone before us. We've evolved enhanced capabilities -- as all sucessful species do. But to claim we are outside of Nature (as I say we need to become) requires significant evidence. To date, I see no such evidence.

... But I do live in hope.

" evolved enhanced capabilities" , what other species has evolved enhanced capabilities like humans , little green men , vulcans , what ?

Human arrogance got us here , that's right. And human arrogance will have to get us out of it too.

Dave

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Sorry LE, but you're falling into the same human-centred arrogance that has led us to the problems we're facing. If there is one lesson we need to understand is that we are not any different than the millions of species that have gone before us. We've evolved enhanced capabilities -- as all sucessful species do. But to claim we are outside of Nature (as I say we need to become) requires significant evidence. To date, I see no such evidence.

The full-on debate over "Nature' is actually a complex argument and far beyond the scope of a mere sailing forum, but here's the CF version: humans only have one viewpoint - our own. We do not have the ability to see ourselves from a completely objective point of view, and to the best of my knowledge no superior race has done a Discovery Channel special on us yet.

But we possess some tools for abstract analysis, so we're not incapable of making some rational observations, and all of history proves that if we can think something, we can usually do it. So, lacking any other input, we're the best we've got. And there's tons of evidence to say that we do some amazing sh!t sometimes.

So, yes we're part of "Nature" and no better or worse than the rest of the organisms, but we are NOT qualified to make such conclusions as "it's in our nature to be destructively greedy, or consume like rabbits till we die off" - because first of all, we're talking about it and it hasn't happened yet, and secondly because such thoughts aren't conducive to the survival of the species, are they (Darwin). Would all such naysayers kindly stop breeding, please? That's a genetic line that should be selected out.

And finally - thinking means we are responsible for our actions. We have to use our abilities to the best of our... abilities. Shrugging and saying "meh, we're just talking lemmings" is a cop-out.

And I'm sure you agree that the best solutions (short of mass human suicide) would likely have the least destructive effects on the rest of the planet's occupants as well.

[jackdale]

Originally Posted by foggysail

Lake Effect---

Lets take it piecemeal and go to the water vapors first. And I must admit I have not checked with "Perg's scientists" to learn if they approve of the work by NASA who believes along with other notable groups that water has a profound affect.

NASA - Water Vapor Confirmed as Major Player in Climate Change

Do you actually read what you post?

"Everyone agrees that if you add carbon dioxide to the atmosphere, then warming will result,” Dessler said. “So the real question is, how much warming?"

The answer can be found by estimating the magnitude of water vapor feedback. Increasing water vapor leads to warmer temperatures, which causes more water vapor to be absorbed into the air. Warming and water absorption increase in a spiraling cycle.

Graph showing that the energy trapped by water peaks near the equator Based on climate variations between 2003 and 2008, the energy trapped by water vapor is shown from southern to northern latitudes, peaking near the equator.
Water vapor feedback can also amplify the warming effect of other greenhouse gases, such that the warming brought about by increased carbon dioxide allows more water vapor to enter the atmosphere.

CO2 is a trigger for warming. Water vapour is an amplifier. We can actually control the amount of CO2 emitted into the atmosphere through our burning of fossil fuels. We have no control over the amplification by water vapour. Warm air holds more water vapour than cool air. Water vapour produces a very nasty positive feedback loop.

[SunDevil]

I have been to Florida (humid) in the Summer, and I have been in the middle of the desert in Arizona/Nevada/California in the Summer. I'll take 110 in the desert over 95 in Florida with high humidity all the time. H2O levels are just like CO2 levels, where if they are high, they trap heat from radiating back into space at night. On a cloudy night (H2O), the heat stays around longer too.

Now, to talk about boats and cruisers, I do think that sailboat cruisers are very good when it comes to being environmental. Even if they do use their engines more than they have too sometimes just to get places. It is the gas powered boats, freighters, and cruise ships that we have to figure out how to clean up. One or two boats isn't going to be a problem, but tens of thousands of big boats and a few million small boats will cause water and air pollution.

I know a few companies have started coming out with solar powered boats, but is there any university or private research into a perfect solar cruising boat? I really like the concept of this boat, but think it could use a few tweaks to the design. Then again, is any boat really perfect unless you build it just the way you want, and even then the sea might show you why you are wrong... Island Pilot DSe Home Page

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by foggysail

Lake Effect---

Lets take it piecemeal and go to the water vapors first. And I must admit I have not checked with "Perg's scientists" to learn if they approve of the work by NASA who believes along with other notable groups that water has a profound affect.

NASA - Water Vapor Confirmed as Major Player in Climate Change

Pardon my impatience. I'm just wondering whether it's your point that water vapour contributes to global warming, or that you've got a complete proof all set up that shows that the earth's climate is not being materially affected by human activity. It could save some time.